How to Become a Finance Athlete with Zach Rial
Welcome to FP&A Tomorrow, where we discuss financial planning and analysis, examining its current state and future prospects, with your host Paul Barnhurst.
In this episode of FP&A Tomorrow, host Paul Barnhurst dives into the evolving role of FP&A (Financial Planning & Analysis) within organizations. The discussion focuses on the shift towards a more strategic and operations-focused approach to finance, exploring how modern finance professionals can become indispensable business partners. The conversation also touches on the concept of a "finance athlete" and the importance of being versatile and adaptable in today's dynamic business environment.
This week’s guest is Zach Rial, the Senior Director of Finance and Strategy at Peak, a travel company based in Salt Lake City, Utah. With a background in finance, holding a bachelor's degree from Utah State and an MBA from the University of Utah, Zach brings a unique perspective to FP&A, blending operational insights with financial strategy. Known for his hands-on approach to finance, Zach shares his journey from operations to senior finance roles, emphasizing the importance of understanding the business from the ground up.
Here is a summary of the key points from the discussion:
What defines great FP&A and why partnerships are crucial for financial success.
The concept of a "finance athlete" and how it applies to modern finance roles.
The importance of intellectual curiosity and its role in driving business insights.
How to manage tough conversations in the workplace with transparency and trust.
The evolving role of finance professionals in strategic decision-making and operations.
Quotes:
Here are a few relevant quotes from the episode
"Great FP&A is about great partnerships. It’s understanding the business, what drives different departments, and being a great partner to make things better." - Zach Rial
"A finance athlete is someone who says, ‘I do finance,’ and that means many different things. It’s about helping the business in whatever way is needed." - Zach Rial
"I consider myself an unusual finance person because I approach finance from an operations perspective—always asking, ‘What does this mean for the business?’” - Zach Rial
"Finance is finance. Whether it's a software company or consumer goods, if you understand what drives the business, you can adapt and succeed." - Zach Rial
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In today's episode:
[01:36] - Paul Barnhurst introduces the episode and the guest, Zach Rial.
[02:27] - Overview of Zach Rial’s background and his approach to FP&A.
[04:46] - Discussion about Zach’s unique path from operations to finance.
[11:05] - Explanation of the "finance athlete" concept and its significance.
[15:29] - Exploration of how modern CFOs are becoming more like CEOs, blending operations with finance.
[26:34] - The role of finance in RevOps and how these functions can collaborate effectively.
[34:37] - Zach shares his approach to handling difficult discussions in the workplace.
[39:26] - Quick insights into essential skills and the future of FP&A.
[42:52] - Personal insights into Zach’s hobbies, favorite books, and life philosophies.
[46:44] - Final thoughts and closing remarks from Paul Barnhurst.
Full Show Transcript
[00:00:00] Host: Paul Barnhurst: What does great FP&A look like to you?
[00:00:02] Guest: Zach Rial: Great FP&A is great. Partnerships. It's understanding the business, understanding what drives the different departments, functional areas of the business, feel what we're doing to our customers and drive more revenue. Like, how is this going to change that? And what does this tell us about that? And that's really how I approached everything I do in finances. I don't know the right way to do this or the best way to do this. And so one, I'm going to go in and I'm going to try to learn that from whatever SME subject matter experts I have.
[00:00:30] Host: Paul Barnhurst: They're learning the business. And intellectual curiosity is always at the top. And often that number one is really being intellectually curious.
[00:00:38] Guest: Zach Rial: But if that CRO is really a chief revenue officer and they're really heavily involved and owning things like marketing and customer success and sales, then.
[00:00:49] Host: Paul Barnhurst: It's making the right strategic decisions. I heard someone say today, I asked him about managing burn and he goes, we basically manage kind of budget and things from a portfolio standpoint. And every dollar we added, we had to offset it. FP&A guy here, have you ever wanted to level up your FP&A skills? Then check out the FP&A Guys Ultimate Course bundle at thefpandaguy.com. That's the fp and a guy dot comm and Use Code podcast to save 25%. Get started learning today! Welcome to FP&A tomorrow where we delve into the world of financial planning and analysis, examining its current state and future prospects. I am your host, Paul Barnhurst, aka the FP&A Guy, and we will be guiding you through the evolving landscape of FP&A. Each week we are joined by thought leaders, industry experts, and practitioners who share their insights and experiences, helping us navigate today's complexities and tomorrow's uncertainties. This week, I'm thrilled to welcome Zach Rial to the show. Zach, welcome.
[00:02:11] Guest: Zach Rial: Hey. Thanks, Paul. Glad to be here. , I'm not sure which category of, , I fit in there practitioner expert or something, but, , glad to be honored among such. Great.
[00:02:21] Host: Paul Barnhurst: We'll give you a list of all three. We'll give you a little bit of all you can decide from there.
[00:02:26] Guest: Zach Rial: Appreciate it.
[00:02:27] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right. So a little bit about Zach before we jump into our first question. He comes to us from the Salt Lake City, Utah area. That's where I've got to know him and have met him several times. We both live in the area. He is the senior director of finance and strategy at Peak. She's a travel company, and then he has a bachelor's in finance from Utah State and an MBA from the University of Utah. So here's where we're going to start. First question I want to ask you what does great FP&A look like to you?
[00:02:57] Guest: Zach Rial: , you know, I think the loaded question, but, , to put it simply, great FP&A is, , great partnerships. It's, , understanding the business, understanding what drives the different departments, functional areas of the business and being a great partner to them to to make all of those things, whatever they might be better in some way, shape or form.
[00:03:19] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I really like that. So great. FP&A is really all about great partnerships.
[00:03:24] Guest: Zach Rial: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:03:26] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right. We'll probably come back to that a little bit more later. But the next question I want to ask you is tell tell us about yourself and your background. Let the audience know who who Zach is. Yeah.
[00:03:36] Guest: Zach Rial: So, , we'll start with the fun stuff. , so Zach is, , Zach, somebody who likes to read. There's a bunch of books behind me read. Probably about all of them. , that's a lie. I don't make all of them. And my list of ones I haven't read are growing. My wife is fighting for it, but, , I love reading. I think just learning is fun. And reading is one of the best ways to learn. , on the kind of opposite end of that, I've also loved physical activity. And so, I played rugby in college and ran track, , some things that I really loved and enjoyed. I love being outdoors and just going and doing things. So I ski on a snowboard. I pretend to golf. , and mostly I'm just out there to be outside and hang out with friends and have a good time. , so that's the fun stuff. , on the the work stuff, I, , I consider myself and I think it's, I used to say an unusual finance person, but it's becoming much less unusual nowadays as the finances evolve. But I consider myself an unusual finance person because I really don't approach finance from a numbers and variance and dollars and sense of, , method. But I really approach it from an operations perspective and a, , what does this mean perspective. And I think that really got started with my first job.
[00:04:46] Guest: Zach Rial: I did an internship and they liked me, and they offered to bring me on as a financial analyst. And then a week into being a financial analyst, they said, hey, we actually need somebody to be an operations analyst and run the shop floor scheduling. And I was like, I could do that. Not a problem. , I had no idea what that meant and no idea what I was getting myself into. , but I went out and I did it, and I beat my head against the wall for many, many hours and weeks and days until I figured out how to be, , ops management and how to to run a shop floor and schedule when things were going to be done and meet sales is crazy demands and, , it motivate and inspire operations to get things done faster and better. But I'm really glad I did it, because when I went back to finance, I had this mindset of like, well, how's business? How does this make us able to fulfill orders or fulfill what we're doing to our customers and drive more revenue? Like, how is this going to change that? And what does this tell us about that? And that's really how I approached everything I do in finances. Is was this teaching something? What is this telling us about business?
[00:05:49] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I've said multiple times, I think every finance professional would benefit from having some kind of operational role at some point, whether it's even just working on a big operational project or directly having that role. You know, I worked a couple of years in the business. It was more as a business analyst, did a lot of report writing. I also supported some groups, did a little bit of cash forecasting and different things, but being in the more of that business role was very helpful when I moved into FP&A. So I'm with you, there's some huge benefit of really thinking from an operational standpoint. I know this this, , episode. One of things we want to talk about, we talked about is kind of structuring this to talk a lot about the finance athlete, which I think we'll get into some operations with that. But before we get there, I'm going to give you an opportunity to, , tell anything you want, experience something about me that most people on social media wouldn't know since we've known each other for a couple of years. Anything you want to share?
[00:06:47] Guest: Zach Rial: , I racked my brain on this one, trying to spend time to think of something that was, like, so interesting and awesome that would that people would remember. And, , you know, I feel like you're a pretty open book. People know a lot of things about you. You don't hide a whole lot. But I did just learn that Paul hasn't had soda, like carbonated soda and was 29 years.
[00:07:07] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Paul 29 years, 29 years.
[00:07:09] Guest: Zach Rial: And, you know, I started the beginning of this with, you know, this message brought to you by Coke is a pretty exclusively powered by caffeine. And so Paul, kudos have thought to you 29 years. That's that's impressive.
[00:07:23] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I'm sure I could come up with a few things others don't know about me, but we'll keep that. That's a good one to go with. I will say I met Jimmy Carter once, so there's one that.
[00:07:31] Guest: Zach Rial: There you go. That's a that's a that was a treat.
[00:07:33] Host: Paul Barnhurst: It was pretty cool. I met him over in London. It was. It was neat. All right, so back to you. Since that's the interview you briefly early in your career, you briefly ran a window washing business that you owned. When did you learn from that experience? How did that come about? You don't really don't see window washing and then finance together.
[00:07:53] Guest: Zach Rial: Yeah, yeah. Great question. , I so I came about because I changed my major to finance. I bounced around for a while and I changed my major to finance it did that before my junior year. So soon sophomore junior year. And I did it like right before summer. And I recognized everybody else with internships, and I had no internships, and that wasn't going to fly. I tried to go look for internships next year, and I needed something to put on a resume that was more impressive, that could attract attention. So I started trying to figure that out. And I also needed money, , because I had none and I needed to pay for school. And a buddy of mine came in and said, look, we can get filthy rich cleaning windows, and it'll be so easy. Here's the model. Here's the math. It's just, we'll we'll come home loaded. And I was like, yeah, that that's what I want to do. , , spoiler alert we did not get filthy rich. We did get filthy. , we did not get filthy rich. We did make good money, though. , it was a good experience, what I learned. So I learned that I don't want to be a salesperson. So I was supposed to be out, , selling and , getting getting people to let us clean their windows. And after about two weeks of that, I said, hey, can I run one of the crews clean the windows because I don't want to sell anymore.
[00:09:05] Guest: Zach Rial: I don't like trying to convince people that they need something. I'm the kind of person that's like, hey, you have a need. I can address that need. Great. We'll do business. I don't want to try to convince you that you have a need. And so, So I switched to the ops side of things, and I helped run the window washing series that follows people around and do all the cleaning. , and then I ran payroll and made sure we got paid. , I learned that everybody has an opinion on this. Get paid. , and that, , it was good to take that into account and let people's voices be heard. But ultimately, we had to make a decision that was best for us and what we did. , I had my first exposure to scientific management and we actually, without even realizing it. And so we did a piece rate where people got paid a portion of the jobs completed. And so that motivated it to get things done faster and get more jobs. , and then later I learned that the actual philosophy and management method behind that, which was kind of cool. , but really, most of all, I just learned to keep myself busy and work hard to get things done and to make it happen when it didn't seem like at the front of you, just thought in the back or make it work.
[00:10:15] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Now there's something to be said for just learning how to make things work. Because I am going to guess what you were sold and the experiences you mentioned were quite different.
[00:10:25] Guest: Zach Rial: Okay, it was not as nearly as easy to sell, right? Yeah, yeah, not nearly as easy as I thought it would be a lot hotter. We did it in Saint George, Utah. A lot hotter than we thought it would be. And the. Yeah, definitely.
[00:10:39] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. And so just learning how to adjust and roll with that and figure it out and make the best of it. That's that's a great lesson that we all need to learn because life never goes as we plan it. Let's be honest, it rarely ever does. Yeah.
[00:10:55] Guest: Zach Rial: Yeah. It's, . I always tell people, yeah, men make plans and God laughs. And so, , here we are.
[00:11:02] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yes, I've heard that quote as well. So before we, , jumped on this, , to record this episode, you and I talked about the term a finance athlete. And I know that's, , something you're a big proponent of. And you wanted to talk a little bit about that on the show. So I'd love for you to explain to our audience what is a finance athlete. What does that mean to you?
[00:11:25] Guest: Zach Rial: Yeah. , absolutely. Great. Great question, Paul. And I think so. Let's first talk about what, like where this term comes from. So, , for those that aren't familiar, most of you probably are, but I like to assume that most people aren't when we explain things like this. An athlete is somebody who is prepping to go into college sports. Usually you see it in football, right? And you they are just good at sports, right? Specifically, they're good at football. And then they don't have any really one set position. That's their position. They're not a quarterback, safety or linebacker. They're just nasty. And they can fill whatever role is needed, for the team. And so that's what this comes from, right? , so applying that to business, a finance person is a finance athlete, somebody who isn't, you know. Oh I do AP, I do ah, I do XYZ, right. There's somebody who says I do finance and that means many different things. And that means how do I help the business? How do I make sure that we're doing the things that are most important, whether that's traditional at Nga, whether that's strategic finance, whether that's the accounting, whether it's you name it. Right. That that's kind of what a finance is.
[00:12:37] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. They do what's needed a little bit of everything. And I love the sports example. And I'll give a couple examples. Some people recognize it some not. But I think some of the greatest examples I think of those athletes Deion Sanders right. Or Bo Jackson playing two professional sports at the same time. You have to be an athlete to do that. The demand. I mean, Deion Sanders, I don't know if you remember as a kid. I remember it playing in a playoff, our World Series baseball game and then flying that evening to play in a football game.
[00:13:04] Guest: Zach Rial: I still believe that. Like, I mean, if there's two sports to do, baseball and football are probably the right ones. But , like, yeah, it's crazy, you know.
[00:13:12] Host: Paul Barnhurst: And then the other there's two other examples I love. One is, , if anyone knows who Danny Ainge is, he was the he's the only person still in the in the US to be a three sport All-American in high school football, basketball and baseball. Not just playing them, not just all state. He was All-American. I mean that that that's what I that's like the definition in sports of an athlete. And then the one other that comes to mind right now is, , for the Saints Taysom Hill. He's returned punts. He's played on defense. He's played running back. He's played quarterback, he's played tight end and he's played wide receiver.
[00:13:47] Guest: Zach Rial: He's done it all.
[00:13:48] Host: Paul Barnhurst: You know I mean that's and I think he's returned return kickoffs in there as well. And so it's like 6 or 7 different positions. You just don't see that. And especially professional sports at that point you're very developed. So I really like that term as athlete because so often we think in our career, yes, they need to specialize. And sure, you have a you may have a specialization, but that doesn't mean you can't be an athlete, at least the way I think of it. So I know you view yourself more as an an athlete, but what do you see as the main differences between that specialist and athlete? If you were to think of what's the biggest difference between the two?
[00:14:21] Guest: Zach Rial: I think the biggest difference between an athlete and a specialist is a specialist has . My control sayings, but they have a set way that they're going to approach things and they're going to try and tackle things and I think get in trouble.
[00:14:35] Host: Paul Barnhurst: It makes for better, , radio, so to speak.
[00:14:38] Guest: Zach Rial: Controversy stirs content, right? , so, you know, specialists, they know how to do things. They know how to do a certain way. The way they. That's what makes them good, right? , an athlete is somebody who's who I think is willing to. And what's more able to say, like, I don't know the right way to do this or the best way to do this. And so one, I'm going to go in and I'm going to try to learn that from whatever SME subject matter experts I have there. And two, I'm just going to figure it out as we go along. Right. And I see, , most people who I would define as an athlete in finance, they are very, biased towards action. Right. And so they're going to sit, not go in there and say, I'm going to create the perfect plan. Get everybody aligned on that plan. Then I'm going to execute. You say, hey, I'm going to create a good enough plan. And while I'm creating the plan, we're going to execute and we're going to learn as we go. Right? , and I think that's really, to me, one of the biggest differences.
[00:15:29] Host: Paul Barnhurst: So I'm curious, it leads me to a question, do you think most, most CFOs are athletes, or do you think they've got to that level because they've been really good at what they've specialized in, and they've kind of switched to enough different areas that they have enough experience to get that role. What's your thought?
[00:15:47] Guest: Zach Rial: You know, I think that's changing. I think if you'd asked me this question five years ago, I would have said they're probably much more specialists and they've gotten to the where they're at because they're a specialist. If you ask me now and what I see the next couple of years looking like, I think that they're much more of athletes and they build many roles and they they made it work. , I think you're seeing more CFOs that are CEOs as well. Right. And they're filling both the role of chief operating officer and Chief Financial Officer. Yep. , I think the inverse is true, too. You see a lot of CEOs who are filling CFO roles as well. , and so it's the line between operations and finance, especially in smaller companies and startups. But just really overall is becoming very blurred. , and finance is now being relied on much more to be strategy. And you're seeing less, less chief strategy officers. And that role is being taken over by.
[00:16:36] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, I think there's a lot of that. You're seeing some of the by the strategy. Finance is much more commercial. And I agree with you. I saw a report just this last week that said, in 2023, one third of CFOs that left a fortune 500 company left To become a CEO, you have to be an athlete. As a CEO is a general rule. Unless certain industries. Yeah, specialist all the way sure can get can get by. But I think if you're one of those that switching between different companies in general business, you got to be a pretty good athlete to be a CEO in my mind. What's your thoughts on that?
[00:17:13] Guest: Zach Rial: I agree with that. So it's funny, , you know, so one of the ways Paul's and Paul and I got to know each other was by creating a networking group in Utah area. And, , one of the first discussions we had was, , as a group was, how do we get into SAS help, help us find other finance people who aren't in SAS, get into SAS. And I was really confused by that because I was like, what's why is it so hard? What's different, like SAS is just it's just a different set of financial analysis you're doing. But at its core it's just finance. Right? , and so that's what I, you know, I think that's leading to your question is like finance. Finance, right? You're if you're doing finance the way that I think is right, which is understanding what drives the business and understanding the impact that you can have and the operations teams there. It doesn't matter if you're doing it at a software company. It doesn't matter if you're doing it at a consumer goods company. It doesn't matter where you're doing it at. You're still focusing on those drivers and trying to improve them. Right. And I think at its core, that's what makes these CFOs so good. It makes them able to become a CEO of other companies is because they've learned to shut down the noise and stop hearing, hey, this is different. This is this is so special. And say, okay, that's great, but I need to focus on what's going to drive the business and what's going to move us forward. And that's really becomes what a CEO's most important job is, what's going to drive the business forward, what's going to take us to the next level, and what's our strategy? How are we going to do that? Right.
[00:18:35] Host: Paul Barnhurst: And a guy here today I want to talk about the FP&A guys Ultimate FP&A course bundle. This bundle includes over ten hours of content recorded by Ron Monteiro and myself. Many templates and great lessons to make you a better FP&A professional. The content includes FP&A business partnering, how to manage tough conversations, build world class relationships, and hold the business accountable. Includes modern Excel, which is a real game changer for the way you'll work in Excel. Excel tables the gateway to modern Excel. Power Query a game changer for transforming your manual processes and loading data, and then dynamic arrays. Next, we cover modeling design principles. In this course we talk about the importance of designing models in a certain way, and how important it is that you think about design. And last but not least, driving value through smart analysis how you can conduct data analysis to be a better FP&A professional. Go ahead and sign up for this bundle at thefpandaguy.com. That's thefpandaguy.com. Use the code podcast to save 25%. Get started learning today. Two things you made me think of, both from recent interviews I did. They'll be coming out one when you talked about, you know, shutting out the noise and just focusing on the business, not worrying about all the differences.
[00:20:03] Host: Paul Barnhurst: This was more about people. But Randy Brown commented, he goes, the number one thing I've learned in my career and he'll be on financial modeling that's helped me, is people are 95% the same. Focus on the 95% businesses at the end of the day, in many ways are the same. You sell something, you collect cash. You want to collect more cash than you expense, right? At its heart, it's really it really is quite simple. You have different channels you sell through. Yes, there's nuances and it can get really deep. And the better you understand them, the more it can help you. But we're not talking about rocket science or brain surgery here. You know, we're talking about something that there's fundamental economics in it. And the second one I love is I was interviewing a guy who's been a CFO. He's been at Campbell's and Del Monte, and we're getting ready to do an interview with him. And he commented, is the CFO. My approach was always business first, function second. I'd love your thoughts on that. That saying, because that strikes me as you and what conversations we've had.
[00:21:02] Guest: Zach Rial: Yeah, I mean, I think it depends on how you define function. I'm going to assume what he's talking about is who is responsible for that and who does it. Right. , and, , you know, I definitely agree with that mindset. I had a recent mentor of mine just say to me, you know, , there's this saying, I think it was either Chinese or Japanese proverb, I don't remember which, but, yeah. You can't hear the screams in the forest unless you listen to the whispers, which sounds very ominous and yet translates a little weird. But the the point it's making is you need to listen to the whispers what's happening right here around you to understand what the big noise is and what why that's happening, why that's occurring. And so I think I spend a lot of time in my role trying to problem solve the things that are happening that are small, that are right in front of us because it tells me something about what's happening. It tells me something about the rumblings and grumblings that help me understand the big picture of what we're doing. Right. And so is that my job? Always? No. I should probably dedicate a little bit more time to the NBR that's coming up and making sure that that presentation looks really good and all the analysis is correct. Right. But I sit there and I say, well, I'm willing to give up a little bit of time on that NBR because I hear this whisper and I think that whisper is worth investigating diving deeper into, and it might teach me something that could be good and beneficial to talk to the right. And so I chase it down. Oh, that's.
[00:22:25] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I like that. I like that quote. I appreciate you sharing that. You know, getting back to kind of the athlete where the specialist I'm curious, do you think it's different skills required to be an athlete versus a specialist, or is it mostly different mindset or how should people think about it? I mean, I'm early in my career and I'm like, I really want to become more of an athlete versus a specialist. How should someone think about that?
[00:22:49] Guest: Zach Rial: Yeah. So I think there's a there's a ways that you can make it happen naturally, which are working in companies where there's not really room for a lot of specialists. Right. And so small, typically smaller companies or small finance teams. Right. I think the other thing is it's not a, it, it's not a skill set in that like, oh, I need to learn and get this certificate. It's a skill set in like, how do you think. Right. And so I and this is how I apply it to my hiring, is I look for people who are just intellectually curious. They want to know why something's happening or why it works this way or what what what what made this happen. Right. And I think that's what separates you out a little bit. There is is as an intellectual, curious person, I want to know why we sell this way. That's it. That's like, at the end of the day, that's really. I'm just interested in that. Like. And the added benefit is it's going to make that change right. And it's going to make me more of an athlete. But really, at its core, I'm just interested in figuring out why we do it. And I'm just curious. I want to scratch that itch and learn.
[00:23:56] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. Interesting you say that because I would say has to be 1 or 2 when I ask people, you know, what should people do to be better at FP&A? Or what advice would you give to someone in their career? And something along the lines of learning the business and intellectual curiosity is always at the top, and often that number one is really being intellectually curious. So what's your thought on that? Is that something that just comes natural to some people? Is it something we develop like say you're in a role and you're really not curious is that you're in the wrong role or you haven't developed that skill. I'm just curious your thoughts. I know there's not a right answer to this.
[00:24:35] Guest: Zach Rial: I think. I think it's a it's it depends. Right. And and you stop answering.
[00:24:39] Host: Paul Barnhurst: No, sorry. It depends isn't allowed on the show. I don't know that.
[00:24:42] Guest: Zach Rial: Cut that out. You're in the wrong role. , no. , yeah. I think you have to put yourself in a situation where you can't be right. And it's funny, I talked to my team about a lot about, like, we need to create opportunities for us to be bored, because when you're bored, you're naturally going to look for something to fill your time. You're actually going to start looking at things most of the time. And so I think, you know, there's a lot of things that we end up doing that don't give us that time to be bored. And it's hard to be curious when you don't have time to be curious. And so I think if you find yourself in a role where you can't and you want to develop that skill, find ways to automate or simplify or streamline what you're doing. So then you have free time to go and be curious and that you'll find that you you want to do that because you want to you want to contribute to the overall success of the business. , and I don't think if you're not born naturally curious, you can't come naturally curious. I think you can become, I think, something you have to want to do and make.
[00:25:43] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I totally agree with you. I think most things there's a heavy component of nurture that you can use. You can learn to do it if you're you're passionate enough, willing to put in the effort. I mean, obviously there's some exceptions. You're not going to be Michael Jordan or LeBron James. If you're five foot five and you have no athletic talent, can you become a decent basketball player? Sure. But there's there's barriers.
[00:26:07] Guest: Zach Rial: Was what I say. Isaiah Thomas was, , the Celtics was he.
[00:26:11] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Correct. Well Muggsy Bogues there's guys who get there. But they also usually have blazing speed or some something with it. You can overcome a lot. But I think there are there are some natural things that become harder. Right. Not say you can't overcome them, but there are definitely some genetic things that make certain things harder than others. But I'm definitely on the nurture side. All right. Now that we've covered science, nurture, nature, all that fun stuff, we'll get back to the show. I funny enough, I have this revops question I want to ask you because I know you've been involved in revops and just getting your thoughts on, you know, hey, where does Revops Sit..
[00:26:49] Host: Paul Barnhurst: You know, how should finance be involved in Revops? And I asked a guy that today that's an FP&A about rev ops in a small company where he could use finance. He goes, sure they could help do it, but they'll do a crappy job like basically keep finance away from rev ops. But if you have to have someone fill the role for a little while, go for it. What's your take on this discussion? Because I've had CEOs tell me that finance should sit in rev ops and then you have others. Oh no, no, that's a bad idea. So I know you've been involved in it. How do you think about it and how does finance and Revops kind of work together for some of your thoughts on those two functions?
[00:27:23] Guest: Zach Rial: Yeah. So so quick, quick answer here is, is I think you have to look at how your team is structured. If you have a CRO and they own Revops and all they own is revops and sales alarm bells, that's probably not what you want. But if that CRO is really a chief revenue officer and they're really heavily involved in owning things like marketing and customer success and sales, then I think that it's probably a really good idea to have rep ops under them, right, because they're owning that go to market engine. And it's funny because like, we default to thinking of go to market as sales and marketing. But like your success team is part of your go to market engine. It's just go to market for existing customers. Right? But you're also selling the success team, usually to to your customers as well. So it's part of your go to market engine. And so you know rev ops in my mind, you know, look at how you're structured and what's going on there. Is finance going to do a terrible job at it. Maybe if you have people who don't get the business and aren't intellectually curious and are willing to be an athlete, , right. But I helped set up our our revops team. I actually, we decided that we needed to have a dedicated rev ops team, and, so we opened a position for director of rev ops, and I actually applied for it.
[00:28:38] Guest: Zach Rial: I thought, hey, maybe this would be a fun pivot in my career. I'll try it out. And I ended up withdrawing my application. I think wants to stay where I'm at, but we hired this guy we just love partnering with, and he does a lot of things that I don't do very well, really, really well and that are very important to us, like making sure that we have proper process documentation, making sure that, you know, we've made everything really simple and easy to do inside our CRM and that our CRM is clean and clear and easy to use. And he doesn't just make it work, he does it right, right. And he's really good at project management. He's implemented asana and he's a wizard at it. And I suck at it. Right? I'm just very terrible at it. Right. But we partner really well together and we work really well together. , and he reports to the Co. He doesn't report to the CFO. Could he report to the CFO and be just as effective? 100% he could. , but at our business, it makes more sense.
[00:29:27] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to business, to people you have. And I've heard a lot of different answers. One of them that probably made the most sense to me that I liked is Scott Stouffer, which said a lot. I think a lot of things similar to you. He's, , been a CEO five times taking companies public. He now is, , CEO of , go to market startup. And he goes, if you have a true chief revenue officer, like you said, not a VP of sales that's masquerading as a CRO, which I think a lot of small companies have, because we have title inflation, let's be honest. And so what he said is if it's a true CRO, much more likely to put it there. And the second thing he goes, are they most more focused on process and systems or analytics? If I want deep analytics out of my go to market, I'm going to have it under finance. If it's really more all about the systems and the processes, I'm going to stick it under my CRO. And that made a lot of sense to me. That resonated with me. And it seems that's similar to what you're saying here.
[00:30:22] Guest: Zach Rial: Yeah, yeah, my my revops partner is really great at systems and process. And he said to the CFO and I think that makes a ton of sense. And we rely on each other for the cross over there. And, and I got some great members of my ops team that really helped the analytics side of things to help, you know, fill that gap. , so I think, you know, it works really well. And I also think it depends on what your, your company is obsessed with. , I'm going to start with obsessed with growth. Well, where does growth come from? Growth comes from sales. And so naturally as a finance person I was being asked about growth and all the meetings and discussions we were talking about when it came to NPR's Qbrs and other things like that. Right. And so I went and plugged myself into sales as much as I could. So I have answers to these things, which was how I naturally began to build out somewhat of a revops process before we built a full revops team and.
[00:31:12] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Makes a lot of sense. And, you know, as you said, right? If you're focused on growth, obviously sells becomes so much more important. As we've all heard the saying, you can't cut your way to growth. It just doesn't work. Companies have tried. They're usually not around anymore.
[00:31:30] Guest: Zach Rial: Yeah. I mean, it's, , the smart growth too, though, right? And so you can reprioritize and make make decisions. I know there's a there's a company here in Utah that I talked to and they realized that they were growing at a great rate, but their firm wasn't changing, right. And they weren't having the kind of like churn metrics that they wanted to have. And so they realized they were focusing on birds. And so they cut the other verticals and made them not focus as constant sales team. But now looking at the numbers, they're doing phenomenal and they've grown rapidly. And their all their KPIs are positive and they're getting to the point where they're better again. So there's there's smart growth. , and I don't think that's cutting your way to I think it's just making smarter decisions.
[00:32:13] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Correct. It's making the right strategic decisions. I heard someone say today, I asked him about managing burn and he goes, we basically manage kind of budget and things from a portfolio standpoint. And every dollar we added, we had to offset it. So we didn't we weren't growing. If we weren't finding a way to do it within that framework of saying we're getting benefit for it, it's going to lead to, you know, dollar 20 or $1.30. I worked at a company once. They've got a new, new CEO. And one of the first meetings, he sat down and said, okay, here's how much we've grown over the last three years. We've grown, you know, three, 4%, whatever it was last three years. Here's how much we've grown in expenses. And it was like a dollar and seven compared to that dollar. And three. He's like that can't continue. There will be changes.
[00:33:00] Guest: Zach Rial: Yeah math doesn't math.
[00:33:01] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. Over the long run if the bottom line is higher than the top line and growth it's it's not sustainable.
[00:33:09] Guest: Zach Rial: Yeah I think especially in today's market right. When when investors are looking to put money into companies, the mindset of growth at all costs is definitely I don't want to say gone, but it's different. Yes, it's not so much at all costs anymore. And so you just need to be aligned with what you're trying to accomplish as a business too, right? And what you're trying to do with your investors. And if you're going to need more investors and all those type of questions you can answer.
[00:33:34] Host: Paul Barnhurst: A lot has changed. Someone told me the other day, last year was the first year, I think it was a year or two ago that we didn't have just continued growth in e-commerce. So now they're figuring out how do I manage a business that isn't always growing? We don't have free money anymore. Yes, it's still relatively cheap compared to historical. For those that have been around more than 40, 50 years, that kind of experience, some of that, sure. But for many people, they've never experienced even six, seven, 8% interest rates. And so that's expensive.
[00:34:04] Guest: Zach Rial: Yeah. , it certainly is. In my adult life, seven 8% interest rate is incredibly high, and it scares me a little bit. Yeah.
[00:34:12] Host: Paul Barnhurst: No, I mean, buying more.
[00:34:13] Guest: Zach Rial: I'm a student of history, so I recognize that. That's pretty good actually in the grand scheme. Yeah.
[00:34:17] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Like if I talk to my my parents bought their first house in the 70s before I was even born, early 70s, I think they paid a 21% interest rate.
[00:34:23] Guest: Zach Rial: So I mean, yeah, I was like 2018 somewhere in that.
[00:34:25] Host: Paul Barnhurst: No, they paid $11,000 for the house.
[00:34:28] Guest: Zach Rial: That's a different.
[00:34:28] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Story, you know. So the payments I thought were like 200 a month or whatever. Well, you know, there are definitely some differences. But anyway, one more question I want to ask. And then we're going to jump into the rapid fire. So this is kind of a little change of subject. This is something I know about you. I know you pride yourself on being able to manage tough conversations and really making sure transparency is front and center, even if it's a difficult conversation. So how do you go about doing that? And maybe any advice you could offer to our audience? Because I know that's something you're good at, so I'd love your thoughts on that.
[00:35:02] Guest: Zach Rial: Yeah. You know, there's, it's hard. I'm not I'm not going to mince words. It's it's not easy. And there's things you can do to make it easier. And it really has to do with the security that you feel. Right. And so the best way you can to to get this, to be able to do it is to have a really secure work environment with, with people that you can trust and, and can be this kind of blunt and forthright with. , that's the best work in my opinion. Right. And so whether that's who you report it to or your stakeholders or your team, individuals, right. Building that environment where there's that trust that you can be that person, right. And say those things. I think, yeah, the other way you can get it is, is by being right. , and it sounds a little egotistical, but like when you prove that you're correct, when you have consistently shown that what you're doing is correct and right, that's mostly mistake proof. You are in credibility. And that credibility allows you to say hard things sometimes because they know that it's credible and you're not just griping and moaning and groaning and complaining, but you're you're you're probably quite right. And so, you know, that's where I think the beauty of the traditional finance mindset does help out. And it was inspired by a mentor of mine who went up through finance. When you had to have a stint as a controller and you had to be perfect, you had to do all those things right, and he'd be in the my head, tie out all your files, tie everything out, put it all, make sure it all works, and it's all completely accounted for. And so that's one of the first things I do when I take over some processes. Like is this right. Right. Because I want I have credibility and you maintain or build and I need to make sure that I have that so I can say things because that if I can't say things, I can't be.
[00:36:50] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Looking to level up your career and build skills that make you stand out to FP&A hiring managers. How about earning a certificate from a world renowned business school? Wharton Online and Wall Street Prep have partnered to create an eight week online financial planning and analysis certificate program. You'll learn the art of forecasting, analysis, business partnering, and financial storytelling from Wharton Online's world class faculty coupled with first hand exposure to technical and interpersonal skills with real world applications as practiced in top corporations, space is limited. So level up your career today and use the discount code the FPA Guy 300 to receive $300 off tuition. That is the FPA guy, 300 to receive $300 off tuition. Learn more by going to wallstreetprep.wharton.upenn.edu/. I love the two things you said there. Trust, right? If you have a healthy culture with trust, it's easier to speak your mind and to being able to bring facts to the discussion and having done your homework to support those facts. So that you can, you know, basically like, look, this is what the data says. And in this case, there's really not much argument to it. Sometimes there may be. And then you bring in the different points. But I really like that because I've heard someone say dispassionate, hard headed analysis. And what they mean by that is not being a jerk. It's removing emotion and let the facts speak for themselves. And there's something to be said for that during a difficult conversation.
[00:38:33] Guest: Zach Rial: Yeah. I mean, I've ended many conversations with sales, about quotas, about things that, you know, finance and sales fight about by saying, I hear you, I really do. I hear what you're saying, but that doesn't explain these numbers. And I need to be able to defend into this decision, at least with numbers in some way, shape or form. And can you argue that this is correct or wrong? You know, like, tell me this isn't right to so that I can agree with you. And they're like, I can't. I'm like, okay, so I can't agree with you, right? And then we start to figure.
[00:39:03] Host: Paul Barnhurst: That, yeah, I remember we had a conversation one time with the sales head and we were developing new commission plans, and they wanted to have no clawback. If a customer canceled early and were like, here's the economics, explain to us how this is going to work. Right. We'll sell over it. No.
[00:39:21] Guest: Zach Rial: Never have. That's right. You never have. Yeah, exactly.
[00:39:26] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right. So we're going to move into two sections. The first are some questions. , first section I call it kind of rapid fire. And the idea that give quick answers on this four of them around for 4 or 5. And then we're going to do get to know you and we'll wrap it up here. So just a few more minutes. So what I'm going to start with what is the number one technical skill that FP&A professionals should master modeling.
[00:39:51] Guest: Zach Rial: Okay. That you gotta be a good modeler because, . And what I say is not that you have to have the most complex model, and that's all the coolest formulas. Your model has to be useful, right? It has to teach about business. And that's what I mean by modeling. Right. Like because it can be wrong. They're always wrong. But if you're a good modeler, your modeler will teach you why you missed and what happens automatically. Well, I'll.
[00:40:12] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Sum it up. As George Box once said, all models are wrong. Some are useful. Make sure yours is useful.
[00:40:19] Guest: Zach Rial: That's a mantra I live by. So that's my team at least once a week.
[00:40:22] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Love it. What's the number one? Soft skill.
[00:40:26] Guest: Zach Rial: Communication. . Not now. I'm not going with that one. Persuasion. I think you need to be able to persuade people and get them to believe you and hear the message that you're truly trying to send.
[00:40:38] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right, so we got persuasion and modeling. All right, next one. If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about FP&A, what would it be? What would you change?
[00:40:52] Guest: Zach Rial: Oh, gosh, I would change. Change the need to do variance analysis on everything. You should do variance analysis on only the the most important things. Everything else. Just let it go.
[00:41:08] Host: Paul Barnhurst: But a materiality threshold on there and move on.
[00:41:10] Guest: Zach Rial: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Let's let's apply the audit mindset here. Is it in my materiality threshold. Yes. No.
[00:41:16] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Great move on. I like it I've seen a little bit of that done. And definitely there's times we could use more. Are you currently using generative AI?
[00:41:24] Guest: Zach Rial: No, not not really. I mean, I use it like I know people get asked this question and they're like, well, do you ask it a question about blah, blah, blah? So I will use it as a sounding board or I'll use it, say like, hey, where's this information? But I'm not using it in any of my, , well, I'll call finance or high finance skills. Fair enough. Once you haven't figured out how to use it. Best yet, I think.
[00:41:46] Host: Paul Barnhurst: A lot of people are trying to figure out the direct use cases. Sounding board is great. Email a lot of those things others are still trying to figure out. We talked to a guy today that he was teaching, and within 30 minutes after his course, he has people up and using profits machine learning with their data using AI and Python. And so it's it's there And that that just made me go, all right, I need to learn more because I think there's a lot of use cases, but it's trying to figure out how we're all so busy. It's a commitment.
[00:42:15] Guest: Zach Rial: Well, and and you got to convince, you know, your, your, , your IT compliance team that it's okay for me to give it this information so you know, it'll be safe. Don't worry.
[00:42:28] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. You have to figure out. Yeah. And that's why he's doing teaching. Hey, you use the AI to write the python, then you do the Python script and give it your data. Right. So a little different approach, but I, I know what you mean. There's definitely don't don't as I always like to say don't give any public open AI your company's data just don't do it. You wouldn't you wouldn't put it on Google. Don't don't give it to the AI. All right. So we're going to move on to the get to know you section. What's your favorite hobby? You mentioned sports before. Is there one in particular. If you had one hobby or passion.
[00:43:02] Guest: Zach Rial: Well so a favorite sport is , I actually so, , a lot of people don't know this. The United States has a major League Rugby. , MLR. This is my shameless plug. Find your local team, go out and support them. I want to see it grow. I love rugby. , so Salt Lake has a local team. I go watch them. I'm a season ticket holder. It's a ton of fun. , got a lot of my friends into it. My brother comes with me. It's a great time. I'd say my other one would be reading. I usually use that to de-stress. , I've been doing a lot of reading. I guess that we got a hot tub. I love hot tubs. So I go out in the hot tub after a long, hard day of work sitting that read a book that's.
[00:43:36] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Great, coming to your house to play Catan and sit in the hot tub.
[00:43:39] Guest: Zach Rial: Let's get a floating table. I'm in Paul, and.
[00:43:41] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Then we'll go to a rugby game.
[00:43:43] Guest: Zach Rial: So, listen, you just described the perfect thing.
[00:43:45] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right, well, we'll figure it out sometime. I'm in. All right. What's the one book you're going to recommend to our audience? If you had to pick one.
[00:43:52] Guest: Zach Rial: I will say I think that the one that I have enjoyed the most when especially relating to business, is called the Five Dysfunctions of Teams. , right. I don't have a book that's like five minutes. A pair of, , facts about the five things that the teams typically are dysfunctional on and how to fix them. And I have found that it is almost a script written about most interactions I have with dysfunctional teams.
[00:44:19] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I like it. Alrighty. So the five five dysfunctions of teams, right? Favorite travel destination? You can go anywhere in the world tomorrow. Where are you going?
[00:44:27] Guest: Zach Rial: , Iceland. I went to Iceland as a graduation present to my wife and I. We graduated at the same time. We loved every minute of it, and I would go back again.
[00:44:38] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Got it. Love it. If you could have dinner with one person in the world who? You take it. I mean, other than me, of course.
[00:44:44] Guest: Zach Rial: , well, I've had dinner with you, Paul. Well, just just lunch. . And it was good. It was. All right. , , if I had one shot to call, I don't know if I would call you back in. Sorry. You know, I, , I would really like to, , more of a recent thing, but I really like to have dinner with, , Barack Obama. Actually, I, , my parents, , listening, apologize for the slander. I'm about to try you, but my parents are pretty conservative. And so I grew up at when Barack Obama was running for office. And, , under the mindset that he was the worst person ever. , and I have since grown to appreciate all the things he's done. And I would just love to pick his brain and talk to him for a while, because I think he was one of our chief political, but one of our last great presidents. All right.
[00:45:24] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Well, if you can if you make that connection, ask him to come on the show. We can talk government budgets. That could be an interesting discussion.
[00:45:31] Guest: Zach Rial: Oh goodness gracious. I don't want to go anywhere near that.
[00:45:35] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yes, but I gotta go to authority in that case. All right, so if you could give one piece of advice to our audience, either something to start doing or to learn to be a better business partner today, what should they do?
[00:45:51] Guest: Zach Rial: I would say learn what real communication is. , and this is a talk I gave to a lot of people when I first started managing them, is we mistakenly believe that communication is what we're saying to somebody. In reality, communication is what they're hearing. And so you got to learn when you learn that lesson and truly embody it, then you can start to really change how you communicate, talk to people. , because you're now focusing on how do I ensure that they're hearing what I want them to hear? And I think the best way to do that is to play dumb and ask a lot of questions. And by asking a lot of questions, you get a lot of information. And then by having that information, you become a better communicator, more effective at what you do.
[00:46:31] Host: Paul Barnhurst: You add someone, say the number one skill is learning to ask questions for FP&A professionals. So there you go. Ask lots of questions. Play dumb. I'm naturally dumb, so it comes easy for me. All right, last, last thing. If someone wants to learn more about you and get in touch, how should they do it?
[00:46:48] Guest: Zach Rial: You know, I'm happy to connect on LinkedIn. Send me a message there. , you can reach out to to me directly via my email. It's, zrial1992@gmail.com. So first initial last name 1992. I'd be happy to chat with you. I, I love talking to people. I'm a pretty social person, so.
[00:47:06] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right. Great. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. Zach enjoyed chatting and looking forward to the audience getting to listen to this.
[00:47:12] Guest: Zach Rial: Hey, it's a pleasure, Paul. Thank you for inviting me. I'm honored to be here. I think you're doing great things for the community. And, , I love tuning in and hear what I can hear when I've got some free time and see what you work on.
[00:47:23] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right, well, thank you, I appreciate it.
[00:47:25] Guest: Zach Rial: Cheers.
[00:47:26] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Thanks for listening to FP&A tomorrow. If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a five star rating and a review on your podcast platform of choice. This allows us to continue to bring you great guests from around the globe. As a reminder, you can earn CPE credit by going to earmarkcpe.com, downloading the app, taking a short quiz, and getting your CPE certificate to earn continuing education credits for the FPAC certification. Take the quiz on earmark and contact me, the show host for further details.