How Finance Professionals Can Build Success in Corporate Spin-Off Transformations with Jens Gutberlet
In this episode, Host Paul Barnhurst, aka The FP&A Guy, explores the complexities of corporate spin-offs with guest Jens Gutberlet. They focus on Kenvue’s remarkable journey of separating from Johnson & Johnson with strategic reasoning and organizational transformation. This discussion highlights the challenges and opportunities that arise when creating a standalone company from a global giant.
Jens Gutberlet is a seasoned finance leader with over 15 years of experience in multinational consumer goods companies like Henkel, Edgewell, Johnson & Johnson, and now Kenvue. Based in Toronto, Jens has spearheaded major transformation projects, including two large-scale company separations. His expertise in FP&A and organizational change shines through as he shares his insights from Kenvue’s historic spin-off.
Expect to Learn:
Why Johnson & Johnson decided to spin off Kenvue and the strategic benefits of the separation.
The key challenges and milestones in creating a new standalone company.
How FP&A professionals can contribute to major transformation projects.
The importance of mindset and communication during organizational change.
Opportunities for improvement in finance systems and processes during spin-offs.
Here are a few relevant quotes from the episode:
"Understanding the 'why' behind a transformation is crucial for keeping people engaged and motivated." - Jens Gutberlet
"Managing cultural and people aspects during transformation is often harder than tackling technology." - Jens Gutberlet
"The key to success is breaking down massive projects into manageable, bite-sized steps." - Jens Gutberlet
Jens emphasizes the importance of communication, strategic thinking, and adaptability in navigating the complexities of organizational change. For FP&A professionals, spin-offs are a unique opportunity to shape the future of a company and build robust financial systems.
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In Today’s Episode
[01:28] - Introduction to the Episode
[03:24] - Defining FP&A Excellence
[05:41] - Lessons from Consulting
[09:26] - Kenvue’s Creation
[17:02] - Transformation Challenges
[23:59] - Cultural Considerations
[26:44] - Technology Transformation
[33:39] - Advice for FP&A Professionals
[37:49] - Mindset for Success
[50:34] - Wrap Up and Closing Comments
Full Show Transcript
[00:01:28] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Hello everyone! Welcome to FP&A tomorrow where we delve into the world of financial planning and analysis, examining its current state and future prospects. I am your host, Paul Barnhurst, aka the FP&A Guy, and I'll be guiding you through the ever evolving landscape of FP&A. Each week, we're joined by thought leaders, industry experts, and practitioners who share their insights and experiences helping us navigate today's complexities and tomorrow's uncertainties. Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting your journey in FP&A, this show has something for everyone. This week, I'm thrilled to welcome to the show: Jens Gutberlet. I got that a little bit wrong, but welcome to the show.
[00:02:18] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.
[00:02:21] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Excited to have you. I know we got to chat before, and I thought it'd be great to bring you on the show as we discuss a little bit about Jens, his background. He's based in Toronto, Canada. He recently moved over from Germany with his family. He studied business with a focus on finance and accounting. He started his career in consulting for a couple of years, and that will explain why he might give. It depends for some answers. And then he worked for the last 15 years in several multinational consumer goods company Henkel, Edgewell, Johnson and Johnson, and now he's with Kenvue. But he's got profound and broad experience in finance, in various FP&A and finance leadership positions, and helped with two separation processes and stand ups of new companies, first at Edgewell, where they separated from Energizer, and most recently at Kenvue, separating from Johnson and Johnson. Brave to do two big separations. All right. Well, let's jump into it. I like to start with two questions. First, if you had to define FP&A in one sentence, how would you define it?
[00:03:34] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Oh, that's a good one. I mean, for me, it's very broad tool set and many skills that you need to have and can bring in. But really what it comes down to it is really for me being a good business partner, being a business partner to various levels of the organization and having helping the organization to better sound financial decisions and help the organization to develop financially in a good direction. And that's how I would define FP&A with all its many tool sets.
[00:04:04] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I like that at the end of the day, it comes down to helping the business make better decisions and helping with the financial path. Being that partner for them. And so what does great FP&A look like in a function? What are we doing if we're great at FP&A.
[00:04:18] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Good from great within FP&A is, I guess, probably also many other areas where it really is a mindset, right? So the mindset, the willingness to to be a great business partner to influence the entire organization, actually the proactivity to understand your business. Right. So what are the drivers? What? How can you influence and then support the organization, the people, the teams. Right. Obviously you need the basics. You need the skills, technical skills, soft skills. But really the differentiator, the difference makes the passion and the energy you bring into it.
[00:04:52] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I love that about mindset. You know, you think of athletes and the great athletes always have that mental edge. Yes, they may be blessed with great genetics or athletic ability, but there's tons of people who have great athletic ability that never make it to the level that others with less talent do because of that mindset and that passion. So I really like that. I think to be great at anything, you have to have a passion for it and a love. Otherwise, it's hard to put in the work.
[00:05:23] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: And it also helps you to do the extra mile, right? I mean, it's sometimes hard work. Obviously you need to do long runs and have to fight through it, and you need to want to do it. And then you push it and then you're good at it. That's how I see it.
[00:05:35] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, I need to do a few more long runs. My weight is telling me I haven't been pushing through on the exercise, but. All right. So you started your career working in consulting or controlling briefly. Then you moved into consulting. Kind of. What led to wanting to do consulting. Talk a little bit about that.
[00:05:52] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Yeah, for me, consulting actually was the perfect environment to start off a career. Really. So I can only recommend that to anyone. Really. I only did that for a couple of years. I didn't want to do it for long. Forever. Right. But what I really liked is the fast paced, steep learning curve, right? I mean, you had the chance as a young professional specifically to learn many different companies, many cultures, many different topics, short, fast paced, and that helps a lot. You obviously also learn the tools of consulting, right? The ability to work under pressure, to cut through complexity, to have the end in mind. Solution thinking right. First principle thinking as one thing that I like very much really to complex and volatile or ambiguous problems, right. You find a way to cut through that and come to the essence of it, right? And that helped me a lot, actually, in my later career. And it also helped me a lot to understand in which direction I want to go, given that I could see in a short time frame so many different things.
[00:06:58] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Makes a lot of sense. And I've seen a lot of good FP&A people that come from consulting because, you know, many of the things you mentioned, I've also seen often investment banking and engineering engineering ones have that really good math skills. And so it's interesting to watch. Not to say it can come from anywhere, but I could totally see how consulting that fast paced environment, the framework to learn first principles, thinking how you could bring all that to be better at that makes a lot of sense. You know what was maybe was there. You mentioned first principles thinking. Was there 1 or 2 other key things that you felt like really helped you when you started out in FP&A from consulting.
[00:07:37] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Being goal oriented? Certainly another one, right? Really know what you're solving for, right? And be solution oriented in that way. Right. And that helped me I think that helps a lot of FP&A colleagues to work through complexity towards that target. Right. And that structures the work. And that also then reduces a lot of the things which are not necessary. Right. I think that's another very important thing which helped me, which you learn. And then certainly also the communication piece of it. Right. Communication relationship building. You certainly need to do that. You had the chance as a consultant. And that's a little bit intimidating, right. To work obviously with senior people in the organization on the side. Right. And that helps you really a lot to learn. How do you phrase messages? How do you communicate to them so that your idea sticks. And they also very often don't like consultants. They don't want to have them here in many cases. Right. So it's a little bit as with working auditors, you need to have them, but you don't really want them, right. And then learning how to deal with that convince people about your solution, about your capabilities. I think that's another thing that you can learn very good in that area.
[00:08:51] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, I agree, a lot of companies are like, why do we have consultants in here? We can just do this ourselves. It's kind of like when the auditor comes out to talk to this person, but I know what you mean. There's definitely a learning there of how to work with people, especially when it's very clear they don't want you there. There's times they're very open and it can be great, but there are definitely times when it's like, hey, it wasn't my idea that you're here. It's pretty obvious in the way they respond to you. I've definitely seen a few others deal with that and probably been that way once or twice myself, even though I try not to. So I could totally get that. So, you know, you've dealt with some major separations. Spin off the best pictures I want to spend a few minutes about that. You've been at Kenvue now for a couple of years. You were involved in the creation of them as a standalone company. So can you talk a little bit about what Kenvue does and maybe just start with how that came about?
[00:09:47] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Yeah. I mean, Kenvue probably as a company not known to everyone, right. A pretty new company. But I bet everybody knows the products, right? So there are really some iconic brands behind that can use, produces and sells like Tylenol, for example, Neutrogena, Listerine, Johnson's baby, of course, Band-Aid, so many more. So really very strong, iconic brands. And that's what Kenvue, or the products of Kenvue, so Kenvue was founded as a separation from Johnson and Johnson Consumer health. Right. But before the division of Johnson and Johnson. And it was then decided and announced in November 2021. Actually Johnson and Johnson wants to separate off their consumer health business into an individual company. This company is now founded as Kenvue and actually now very large global player selling the product in 165 markets plus minus. So really around the world and the biggest pure play consumer health company, right. So really a strong company and very interesting process that we went through as a company. And I had the chance to support.
[00:11:06] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I bet it was an interesting process. So how long did it take from kind of when the decision was made internally till the, you know, the spin off actually happened?
[00:11:14] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Yeah. So obviously that's a decision that was taken way above my pay grade. Right. So of course I don't know how long really on board level they were working this through. But actually the announcement to the public and internally in the company was done broadly in November 2021. Yeah. So that's when the whole process started. And then really you can say very important milestone when it was officially the creation of the company was when Kenvue was listed as a publicly traded company. And that was in May 2023. So roughly one and a half years. So it seems like a quite a short time frame. And it was with all the work that needed to be done. Just imagine how many things, processes, teams, everything needed to be separated. So that's a bit the process, how long it took. It's still going on a bit. So there's still interactions and relationships which are resolving and getting resolved and wind down. There are some TSA management still ongoing, you know, around that transition service agreements. So agreements that were put in place to organize this transition. So it's coming down. I think by beginning mid of next year that's most of this will be resolved. So it's really quite a long time frame that it took to really go through this entire process.
[00:12:42] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Sure. I mean 18 months till the kind of the Nasdaq. Who knows how long before that was a six months? Was it a year? Had they been discussing it for years? I'm sure it first came up. We probably a couple years ago is an idea and took a long time before, you know, highest level. They made that decision. Yeah. Yeah. And then you have another sounds like year and a half, two years with some TSA transfer service agreements and trying to really split off where you're truly, fully on your own.
[00:13:12] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Right. That's true.
[00:13:14] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like a massive process. What was the reasoning they gave for the split? Like what was the kind of the thinking? Was it a, you know, just kind of an investment type decision or what was the logic?
[00:13:27] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: That is certainly one reason. But I think thinking behind was really to that they came to the conclusion that it's both companies can be better off with a focus on their core. Right. If you think about it, continued consumer goods, consumer health products, and pharmaceutical medical device products. They are totally different businesses in most neighborhoods. Right. And I mean, they had a good time together and they helped each other for a long time. Very strong and successful company. But I think at the end it was clear that with a focus, with a strategic focus, both companies would be better off. And that's, I think, the main rationale that was given to why this is being pursued. And actually also that's very clearly understandable, right? I mean, you can see that in many areas. And just think about how many regulatory requirements and legal requirements you have when you launch a firm pharmaceutical product, right? I mean, that's yeah.
[00:14:32] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I don't even want to imagine.
[00:14:34] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Yeah. The lead times of years, right. Ten years. I think it's not nothing. Right. And then a consumer goods company with like such a fast paced, cycle changing consumer demands, reacting to consumer demands, short lead times and so on. That didn't fit, fit together. And I think it was a very good decision, then to decide that you can create more value financially also, obviously, and be a better company. Stand alone. Yeah.
[00:15:05] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, so I worked at American Express when they sold off and I left before the official day when they split it, but they had announced it publicly when they spun off their business travel from the card and bait business. Right. And so similar type things there. Just travel is very different from the card. Even though for a long time they were very helpful together because a travel with us and use your American Express card to help build the brand. But they just couldn't invest, justify the same investment and travel that it needed as cards. It's like I get a 20% return here and a 6% return there. Whatever the numbers are, just like, why would I invest in this outside of just enough to keep it going? And that's not a healthy position for a business. And I imagine there was some of that as well.
[00:15:59] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: For sure. And obviously that needs to be fit for the right purpose to make decision. Also, for example, when you do investments into IT systems, for example, right, if you want to scale them up, you want to make them as broad as possible. But if you want to cover everything in one ERP, for example, farm business, medical business and consumer, that doesn't work. So you end up with different system, difficult decisions, investment decisions and so on. So that's really where it becomes difficult and where it makes sense to focus clearly.
[00:16:33] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Sure. Yeah I can imagine in the IT and the tech stack and the different dimensions and things you need to track are just really hard to put all in one system. So it's like now we have two systems and it's almost like you're operating in many ways. You are two businesses in one, which just leads to distractions sometimes. How do you do a really good job when you have very different businesses? And we see it and some people are successful at it, but it's hard.
[00:17:00] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:17:02] Host: Paul Barnhurst: So what was the transformation process like for you on the FP&A side? Maybe talk a little bit about kind of that journey and what the process is like, the things you had to go through to help stand up a new company.
[00:17:16] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: To stand up a new company. Obviously, you need to disentangle the entire organization. Right. It sounds actually very easy that you carve out one piece and you have a split off in this case. That's a technical phrase, I guess, how you bring it to the market. But just Underlying. There are so many things that need to be taken care of in all areas, right? I mean, there are contracts that need to be taken apart. There are legal entities that need to be taken apart. There are systems that need to be taken apart. There are all kinds of financial accounts that need to be taken apart and built on. And I think that's the next thing that we want to take it apart. You also need then to create the new company and set up the new identity, the new values, the new structures and so on. Right. I think that's on a high level what was done. And around the world, there was a lot of entanglement over the years because there was always the drive for efficiency. Right. And you'd be more efficient if you scale up. And that needed to be put into different pieces again. And then in a way that it makes sense for both companies. Right. That's a bit just in a couple of minutes how this massive process actually, which was, I think one of the biggest of its kind was done right. So that sounds still easy. So but you can think, understand how the devil is in the details and the complexity where it's coming from.
[00:18:48] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I am sure. And so can you talk and tell us in the details. What for you is maybe the most challenging part like that you had to spend the most time on or that really, you know, either stimulated you intellectually or was just a real challenge to figure out. What do you think was kind of the hardest or part for you in that, in that journey?
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[00:20:28] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Yeah, that's a very good question. I think the massive scale of the project. Maybe I'll think about it. What my role was a bit in this process. So I had the chance directly after the announcement, actually to jump on a role as a project lead in a region Europe, Middle East, Africa. I was asked to coordinate to lead the project management office for the finance activities and helping the organization to work through this complex process. Bring the right people in place, bring the topics to the right people and tracking, coordinating, escalating, resolving challenges. Right. And I think what I think was very tough for me and the organization was that this massive monstrum of what is ahead of us, how do we work through that? Right? Because if you take it as one thing, it's unmanageable, right? And then in short time frame of only one and a half years. Right. Only one and a half years. But for this, that was so that that was massive, massive. And I think it was for the entire organization. A lot of uncertainty, a lot of unknowns. So what will happen? Nobody can give the answers for that. And they most of the answers needed to be created. Right. So I think that was a big challenge for the organization. And then structuring that, bringing that down to chewable bites. Right, so that you can really work through that. I think that's then certainly how we work through it and with a lot of external help, a lot of consultants, a lot of legal advisors. Right, which are necessary for this process, for sure, and were very helpful. You work through this process step by step and structure it. But that's also an amazing learning how you can like a project of this scale, how you can manage it through and take the people along.
[00:22:31] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. I imagine, like you said, there was a lot of you said consulting legal one time separation expenses on both sides on the PNL.
[00:22:41] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah.
[00:22:42] Host: Paul Barnhurst: A project that size. Yeah. And I imagine a huge part of this, you know, as you mentioned, you had to break it down. You kind of have the phrase I liked as a kid that I always heard was, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. Right. Big project like that. You just have to slowly work through it, because if you try to do it all at once, it's just overwhelming. And you'll never get there, right?
[00:23:06] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: If you try to do it all at once, you get lost, right? And then you get discouraged. Right. And cut it down. Slice by slice. How do you eat an elephant? That's the right thing. But always have the vision or the target in mind, right? So that you really know what you're going towards. Have a very clear goal. I think that's what they did very well actually. Also from day one really clearly outline what are we working towards. Right. So what is the plane that we are trying to build? That's a nice expression. From our senior leadership that we are building a plane while you're flying it actually. Right. So yeah.
[00:23:43] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I've heard that one. Yeah.
[00:23:44] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: And that's actually a little bit hard. A good analogy. How was at that time?
[00:23:50] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, I think it is a good analogy because it makes you realize how hard and dangerous and kind of challenging it is, I would imagine. And I'd love to get your thoughts. Transformation to the size. Huge cultural piece to this of how do you keep people involved? Because I'm sure a lot of people are concerned anytime there's a spin off, what will this all mean and how does this change things? Just that kind of uncertainty, even though there may be excitement that comes with it. So how do you manage the cultural side and the people through a project like this?
[00:24:22] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: I think a lot through the why. Right. To explain what is the purpose and the reason why this is being done and what is way. The goal we want to go to is why are we doing this and what do we have at the end? I think that's very important. And that helps then colleagues to understand. And I think for me, I was more or less closely involved into all this work. So I had a lot of insights into what is, how it's structured, what is coming next. But for many colleagues in the operational units, it was a lot more on now because many things could not be communicated to them, as I said before. Right. Because some of them were not even known yet. Right. But I think the good job that was done by the organization is communicate a lot, give the purpose, give the reasons explained, take them along the journey and help them to understand what is happening. I think this is very, very critical to keep everyone engaged and take everyone along.
[00:25:27] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yes, it sounds like I had really good leadership that really focused on, like, why are we doing this? Why is it important? And this is the journey we'll take together versus. And I think we probably all seen as soon as you get a project where it's like, hey, this is what we're doing. No, why, no real explanation, no encouragement. And everybody's like, I'm not sure I buy into this. Let's try even like this idea. And if you don't spend that time to get people comfortable, you're going to be less successful. Yeah.
[00:25:57] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: And you have to listen also to their concerns, right. That you need to understand what is bothering them. What are the fears. Right. You need to give people a chance to work with it and be there for them. Right? I think that's true for any project and change. Change process.
[00:26:14] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think the most difficult part of change management is the people and cultural stuff right now. Technology is technology. At the end of the day, as long as you select something that can meet your needs and there's many different tools and you implement it well, you can be successful if you make sure you take care of the people and do the training and other things. But if you don't do that, you can have the best tool in the world and you may not get any adoption.
[00:26:39] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Yeah, and no one wants to use it afterwards, right?
[00:26:42] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, that never happened. So speaking of tools, I imagine you had a lot of work you had to figure out, okay, how do we stand up the technology for finance and FP&A because you're splitting off. And, you know, I'm sure there were different tools that made sense to use now that you're your own company versus what Johnson & Johnson used to talk a little bit about that. How did you kind of work through that process of just the technical transformation?
[00:27:07] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Yeah, I think changes like this give, obviously, to an organization the opportunity to also rethink the tools that they need and that they want to use. Yeah. And I think it was very clearly part of the process to understand how can we set up our systems, our ERP system, up to the success that we afterwards are stronger and fit for purpose and fit for purpose tool and a stronger company? Yeah. So that was very clearly part of the roadmap. Also, what kind of reporting tools you need versus what you used to do before? It is for sure very difficult to do everything at once. I mean, there's a lot of ERP project for company. Not in this situation is a very difficult one. But do that together. That makes the challenges tremendously bigger, right? So I think that's very important from my perspective, for companies that are going through this process to think that side of the equation very strongly from the beginning and plan that throughout the process from the beginning, because in the end, life goes on. And in the end, you need to get out. And competition doesn't sleep, right. So you need to be coming out of this process, able to run fast, right? And cannot wait one and a half years and then come pick up where you were before. So really important that that part in and obviously that gives them another change to the organization. But managing that right I think that if you have like change you can combine it right. Then you can also use the benefits of having changes in multiple areas and combine that. So that might even ease the pain a bit and make it more successful.
[00:29:02] Host: Paul Barnhurst: That makes a lot of sense. I'm sure there's opportunities to make processes better. Now that you're getting to select your own software and do things in a way that maybe you thought should have always been done, but didn't make sense in the prior company because you needed new technology to do it, or just because of the parent companies priorities, whatever it may be.
[00:29:23] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: So you can also sort of do that. You can also have a chance to cut through legacy systems. Or we do that while we always say that we didn't touch it right. I think these kind of things have existed in any company, right? But this really gives you the opportunity to tackle those and really think through. We do it like this. Is that really the right way or is now the time to change it? And that's for sure a strong opportunity for that company.
[00:29:51] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, I would imagine for FP&A or kind of general, I know you're on the transformation, but for an FP&A team it would be an incredibly challenging, exciting and probably stressful time. A lot of hours of work as you're, you know, you're now trying to redo all your reporting to meet the new company's needs. You're changing some of your budgeting and planning process. You've got whole new organizations, sometimes new people you're supporting. But there's the excitement of, hey, we now get, you know, different investment. We can focus on just the business. We may not have to hear all the time. No, that doesn't make sense. You know, we're focusing on other priorities. So, you know, what are the opportunities for FP&A in a time like this? Because I imagine there's a lot of opportunity to kind of stand out and shine in this if you're committed and passionate. So what do you see as those opportunities for FP&A people. And this happens.
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[00:31:46] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Ironically, the thing that FP&A can play a very strong role in that, right? I mean, with all that you mentioned and also that the business continues, right? And by running those trainings. Right. And that's where FP&A can be very strong with the right support, mindset, help. And I think we're very strongly FP&A can help is on one side to explain to the organization what all these kind of things, with their financial acumen and the background. Explain why is it helping? So what are the good things about the painful work that we're going through? Right. What is the outcome that that will bring or the financial benefit and what will leave us better off afterwards? Right. So that's certainly one. And I also think that it's a very strong opportunity for FP&A to rethink their structure and overall finance in an organization to think through. How do we want to be set up afterwards? Right. How do we combine different finance functions in a better way? How do we cut through silos, for example, that might have been there before? Right. And combine it. How do we also maybe integrate FP&A thinking and financial thinking mindset even more into the business so that they have a stronger financial standing? So I think all of this can be very powerful. And I'm really convinced that finance FP&A has a very, very strong role in this, not only to manage it through, but really to shape the organization for a better future afterwards.
[00:33:31] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. And I mean, so what would you tell somebody after having gone through this twice? I know you worked with this, not just Johnson and Johnson. If I have someone listening in FP&A and they're getting ready to work on a defense divestiture spin off, is there 1 or 2 pieces of advice you would give them that you've learned through this journey?
[00:33:51] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Yeah, from an FP&A perspective or from a finance perspective, really have the new company in mind right from the beginning. So make sure that this is being worked through and considered in the planning and preparation from from the beginning, because, I mean, as we talked about this as a lot of distraction, many things that need to be worked on, and it's rather it can happen that it's actually rather easy, that you then rather focus as an organization on the things that you definitely must do. Like you're getting your accounting right, getting your compliance. Right. And that, I would say, is very important for FP&A to make sure that what FP&A stands for consider that directly throughout the process as well. Right. And fight for that to make sure that the setup is considered throughout the way that you come up strong afterwards to that maybe. Also, I think what is my learning generally? I mean, consumer goods is a very rather small margin business in comparison to fund, obviously. Right. So there's a lot of more savviness and financial focus needed to to structure your PNL and your cashflow. Right? I think that's also very important to have that throughout the process in mind. There are many one time costs. There are also many standalone costs. Right. That come with these kind of processes where you have, for example, a new function that you didn't have before or an efficiency that you had before that's no longer there, right? I think that's also one advice that I would give to anyone working in finance had that in mind throughout the process. What how do you shape the organization that at the end you don't have to go into through big transformation, but try to build that indirectly from the beginning to make sure that also, once the process is done, the organization is really state of the art, is very efficient and really fit, fit for purpose and able to run in as on on its own legs basically.
[00:37:20] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, sounds like everyone is really. Think of not just the technology, not just the process, but think of the company. Think of the strategic, always kind of thinking what's best for them. You know, for the company as a whole. And look at this as an opportunity. It sounds like, because it's easy to think, oh man, this is just something I have to deal with versus an opportunity to come out better on the other side of it. And hearing that makes it sound like, you know, a huge part of this comes down to mindset during this type of time, which you talked about. So maybe talk just a little bit about kind of the mindset you need to have for a project like this.
[00:37:55] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: The mountain in general, I mean, the can do attitude that's so important, right? I mean, you talked about the elephant, right? I think it can be overwhelming. Right. But turning that into positive into visionary thinking, into understanding the opportunities that are behind. That is, I think, the important point to be prepared for it and to get motivated and energized. I mean, just the idea of having a new company. How often does that happen? Right? But the idea of being part of that and having a chance to even at a small scale, shape that and frame that and influence that, I think that's certainly the mindset that helps you to to be very motivated to, to engage in.
[00:38:40] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Sure. And I would imagine a company. I mean, one of the biggest spin offs we've had can view. I mean, what did you guys spin off as, I know, billions of dollars in revenue. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, that's big. The brands you listed are not small brands.
[00:38:54] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: 15 billion company worldwide, right? So it's a huge, huge company. So yeah, fortune 500 company and a very strong player. Right. And that I mean that once in a lifetime opportunity that many I and many of my, my, my colleagues, colleagues certainly had.
[00:39:14] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, I can imagine. Well, thank you for talking a little bit about, you know, the journey. I really appreciate you sharing. You know, some of that. And now I'm just going to ask kind of more traditional question for you. What run over your career. What's your favorite part within FP&A? What do you enjoy most about being an FP&A?
[00:39:35] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: I certainly enjoy that. I have a chance in FP&A to influence the business, to work very closely with business teams on various levels. Actually, I enjoyed that very much already in the beginning, so I was. I loved that when I started at Henkel already they had a similar business partnering mindset, I think, which is very common, especially in consumer goods companies, but abroad, many industry by now is that you partner with your commercial side, you partner with the marketing team, you partner with the sales team, you partner with the managing director later on. Right? You at the end, you partner with the CFO, partners with the CEO. Right. To make it happen. And I think that's really the great thing. And what motivates me so much about FP&A and this kind of work that you have strong technical skills, you have a strong foundation, and then you can really help the business to create benefit. And you can also influence that. So that's certainly a good part.
[00:40:46] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I agree with you. I love the part that you can influence a partner and make a difference with the business, the relationships and creating value. You know, funny enough, nobody yet has said their favorite part is budgeting or planning.
[00:41:00] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: And things just don't need to be done right.
[00:41:03] Host: Paul Barnhurst: And even though it's in our title.
[00:41:06] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: It's there yeah.
[00:41:07] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I mean it totally. It totally makes sense. But it's just kind of funny. So we're going to move into a section, kind of a standard section where I ask a couple questions of all our guests. So the first one, from your perspective, what's the number one technical skill FP&A professionals should master.
[00:41:25] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: For me, that's actually financial modeling and analysis. You need to understand the numbers. You need to make a sense of it, and you need to be able to model them to do sensitivity analysis, to understand, to do scenario planning, to understand the drivers what has impact or not. I think that's number one technical skill to me.
[00:41:49] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, that is probably one of the most common answers. There's two things that come up the most spreadsheets, financial modeling. And they go together quite a bit. Right. In some ways they're almost the opposite of a coin. There's differences between them, but they're intertwined. What about soft skill? Or, as I like to say, human skill?
[00:42:08] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Yeah. Human skills. Soft skills. I think very important, very centerpiece is communication. You need to be a good communicator. And it involves various aspects, right. It involves the relationship building. It involves reading the room. It involves being able to message or to frame your message towards the audience. Right. Make it fit for purpose. Also adapting a message if it doesn't fly right. And I think that's very important for FP&A professionals, because what I've learned over the years, if you're not good at that, then all the good work that you do technically could be for nothing, right? Because you don't land it, right. You don't have the influence that you could have. Right? So I think it comes together. What really good FP&A professionals on the soft skills side can excel.
[00:43:05] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, I'm with you. It's around the communication. And that's a lot of the things the business, partnering relationship, active listening, showing empathy, storytelling. When you put it under that broad communication umbrella, there's a lot of things that can fit there. But you have to have that. You have to be able to influence and have communicate with the business. Otherwise, like you said, you could do fabulous technical work, but if you can't explain it, it goes to waste most of the time.
[00:43:34] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: And you still need the foundation, right? You need all that, right? Plus that makes then the difference. And I think that's very clear.
[00:43:42] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah I agree with you. Okay. This last one is kind of a fun one. I love to see what people say. If you could wave a magic wand. So you're the, you know, genie, whatever you want to call it for the day and change one thing about FP&A, what would you change?
[00:43:57] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Interesting one. Yeah, I think the one thing is, and actually, we are getting there already. Not fast enough. But for me that's a generative AI, right? I mean, really you said about budgeting, nobody said that ever, right? These kind of things, preparing budgets, doing reconciliations, doing basic analysis and deviation analysis kind of things. If we could get that all automated right, which is promised and there in the beginnings, but not to the level that I think needed that would be for me, the one that I would use my wish for then to focus on all the other fun stuff. Right. Of making the right decision story, communication, changing the framing that so that will be it. And hopefully we're getting there. But someday maybe.
[00:44:50] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. No, I mean we're definitely making progress. Still got a long ways to go, but I get it. Maybe wave the magic wand, get rid of all the drudgery, and focus on the fun stuff. I like it. All right, so this is the get to know You section, where we ask a few personal questions to get to know a little bit more about you. So a favorite hobby or passion? What do you like to do when you're not working?
[00:45:11] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: I love to spend time with my kids and my family. I have three kids, a teenage daughter and two boys, 12 and ten and spending time with them. That's especially now. This age is great because we can do so much things together with my boys. A lot of sports, they are very passionate soccer players. Very active. That's a lot of fun. I even coached the team of my oldest son for the last five years. Right. So that was a lot of fun. Coaching the team, I tell you, quite a leadership experience, right? One thing that I haven't seen like that in my professional career, making sure that 28 boys follow you and develop. Developed, right? So that was fun. So really it is spending time with them, right? And I wish I could even do even more of that with them.
[00:46:04] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Sure. I love that spending time. And you mentioned that the leadership skills I did, I was a Boy Scouts Cub Scouts leader for years, been on many campouts with kids and, you know, trying to teach them to tie knots or watching them work with the hatches or cutting wood. And yeah, you definitely get some leadership opportunity going on a 50 mile hike with, you know, 14, 15, 16 year old kids for a week in the wilderness.
[00:46:29] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: But at different periods. Right. And they helped you also in your business life. Right. Because, for example, that you convinced them and showed them that it is fun, do it with fun. And then when you get them and like rules and and we do it like this. Why we. Because we do it like this. Yeah.
[00:46:47] Host: Paul Barnhurst: No, there's definitely some things that come into work for sure. If you could, if you could recommend a book to our audience. What book?
[00:46:54] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Yes. I have two books which I look very often into, and that helped me a lot over my career. The one is from James clear Atomic habits. If you know it, it's about the power of small changes, but consistent changes and the compounding effect of this. Right? And that's for me really one thing that I try to look on, and it helped me a lot to develop in my career because I think if you do it in small steps but consistently, you have so much more chance to get to a great result rather than trying to do the big banks right, which are also scary and hard work. But breaking that down. That's very, very helpful. And the other one is I think it's a little bit older book, but not that much from Daniel Goleman. It's called focus, right? And as the title says, it's around focusing, right. Really making sure to focus on what you do. And I feel that's getting more and more important in the environment. And with all the distractions and the opportunities, we need to focus on what you really do right now and then you'd be good at it.
[00:48:07] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, we live in a world where it's so easy to get distracted. It's all short term, instantaneous social media and soundbites.
[00:48:16] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so easy to be distracted and so hard to remain focused.
[00:48:20] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, I've had it. The last day or two? A number of times. All right, so this is kind of a fun one. I like to ask, what did you want to be when you grew up? What was you kind of career aspiration as a kid? So first.
[00:48:34] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Actually, when I was like ten, 12, I wanted to become a lawyer, right. And it was until the point that I noticed that not every lawyer job is like, Tom Cruise in A Few Good Men. You know that movie. Really? That was my view of a picture of a lawyer, and I thought, this is it. I want to be like this. But then I know this is not like that now. But honestly then, actually, very early on, I wanted to work with people, want to be some kind of a leader in groups, create structures and organizations. So very early on I had the understanding of working in business and organizations. So that's very, very early on I, I had the plan to go in that direction one way or the other.
[00:49:19] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Love it. And I laughed when you said lawyer because as a kid, my reasoning, I thought I wanted to be a lawyer because I liked arguing.
[00:49:28] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: All right.
[00:49:29] Host: Paul Barnhurst: And trying to win an argument. And I thought, you know, that's what a lawyer did. As I got older, it's like, yeah, not so much.
[00:49:34] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Maybe there are other aspects to it as well.
[00:49:37] Host: Paul Barnhurst: So if you could have dinner with one person in the world today, who would you take to dinner?
[00:49:45] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Well, also probably many one that I would like to as Simon Sinek would love to have an evening. I mean, it's so great to just hear him talking the way he communicates, and that's great. But also the ideas that he brings across. We talked about why I think that's one of his core themes, but also the idea that he brings across a lot is about companies and life being an infinite game. Right. So that it's always continuing and it's not like you get there and then you're done. Right. These kind of ideas, I would really love to talk to him about, probably that would end up in him talking all the time and the entire time. And I'm just listening. I think that's how it could be. But I would love to have that dinner with him. I guess sometimes.
[00:50:29] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Those are the best ones when you get to just listen and learn and you don't have to say much. So I hear you on that. All right. Well, I have one last question. Then we'll wrap up here. If you could offer one final piece of advice to our audience to be better at for, you know, better business partners, what would that be?
[00:50:49] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Yeah. Next to all the skills that we talked about. I think being flexible, being agile and adapt to all the changes that are coming, right. I mean, we live in a fast paced world, which I think is even going to accelerate, and I think you can take so much benefit of it and shape it in such a good way. If you have the mindset of agile and embrace it and take it on. And that's what I would say also to FP&A professionals, right?
[00:51:17] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I like it when you said be agile, be flexible. I thought of Excel, right? It's the most flexible tool out there. But you can tell I work in finance when that's what comes to mind. But you know, thank you for sharing that. Thank you for joining me. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. It's been fabulous. If people want to learn more about you or maybe get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that?
[00:51:39] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: I probably LinkedIn, that's the easiest way. So they will find me there.
[00:51:43] Host: Paul Barnhurst: And sure that's kind of what I figured. That's usually the answer. We'll put your LinkedIn profile in the show notes and excited to share this with my audience. This has been a fun chatting about your journey and divestitures, so thank you for carving out some time.
[00:51:59] Guest: Jens Gutberlet: Very welcome and thank you very much for inviting me.
[00:52:02] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Of course. Thanks, Jens.
[00:52:04] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Thanks for listening to FP&A tomorrow. If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a five star rating and a review on your podcast platform of choice. This allows us to continue to bring you great guests from around the globe. As a reminder, you can earn CPE credit by going to earmarkcpe.com, downloading the app, taking a short quiz, and getting your CPE certificate to earn continuing education credits for the FPAC certification. Take the quiz on earmark and contact me the show host for further details.