Why Law Firm Revenue & Cash Flow Forecasting Is a Nightmare (and How to Solve It) with Sean Mooney

Written By Paul Barnhurst

In this episode of Financial Modeler’s Corner, host Paul Barnhurst (aka The FP&A Guy) welcomes Sean Mooney, a senior financial consultant specializing in automated financial modeling for professional services. Sean shares his journey from accounting to financial modeling, the challenges of revenue forecasting for law firms, and the power of Excel automation.

Sean Mooney is the founder of SJ Finance, a consultancy specializing in financial modeling automation for professional services firms. With 12+ years of executive finance experience in the UK and Australia, Sean has built financial models that have helped businesses secure millions in funding. He is an expert in Power Query, Excel automation, and M&A financial modeling, helping companies save up to 75% of reporting time through smart automation.

Expect to Learn:

  • How Sean transitioned from accounting to financial modeling

  • The role of Power Query in automating financial modeling processes

  • Key revenue forecasting challenges in law firms and service businesses

  • Why scenario planning is critical for financial models

  • How financial modeling influences business strategy and decision-making


Here are a few quotes from the episode:

  • “Law firms have long cash cycles, so tracking work-in-progress (WIP) is absolutely critical.”

  • “Debt financing can sometimes be a better alternative to private equity, but many business owners don’t realize that.”

  • “The biggest risk in a financial model? A black hole of stagnant WIP that never turns into revenue.”


In this episode, Sean Mooney shared his expertise on how automation, Power Query, and strong forecasting techniques can transform financial models from static spreadsheets into dynamic decision-making tools. He advises financial modelers to stress-test their models, embrace automation, and always keep learning.

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In today’s episode:
[01:24] Introduction to the Episode
[06:55] Sean’s Passion for Financial Modeling
[09:45] Guiding Clients on Financial Decisions
[15:30] Revenue Forecasting for Law Firms
[24:38] The Potential of Power Query
[30:04] Sean’s Favorite Excel Shortcuts & Tips
[31:39] Excel Nerd Moment
[34:18] Rapid-Fire Questions
[37:53] Final Advice for Financial Modelers


Full Show Transcript
[00:01:24] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Welcome to Financial Modeler’s Corner. I am your host, Paul Barnhurst, aka The FP&A Guy. This is a podcast where we talk all about the science and art of financial modeling. With distinguished financial modelers from around the globe. The Financial Modeler’s Corner podcast is brought to you by the Financial Modeling Institute. FMI offers the most respected accreditations in financial modeling, and that's why I completed the Advanced Financial Modeler, and I would encourage you to do the same. I'm thrilled to welcome on the show this week, Sean Mooney. Sean, welcome to Financial Modeler’s Corner.


[00:02:04] Guest: Sean Mooney: Hello, Paul. Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.


[00:02:07] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, glad to have you. So let me give a little bit about Sean and then we'll jump into the questions. Sean is a senior financial consultant specializing in automated financial modeling for professional services businesses. With over 12 years of executive finance experience across UK and Australian markets. Sean has built numerous financial models and secured millions in funding for clients. As founder of SJ finance, he transforms complex financial data into actionable insights, reducing reporting time by up to 75% through innovative Excel automation and Power Query implementation. Sean's expertise spans PE backed environments. Multi entity organizations and complex M&A transactions. How did it feel to have somebody read it to you?


[00:03:04] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yeah yeah really really good. Yeah I'm really well read as well Paul.


[00:03:10] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Thank you. It's always weird to me when I hear someone read it. I'm like, are those the things I've done?


[00:03:14] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yeah, yeah.


[00:03:16] Host: Paul Barnhurst: It's kind of fun.Tel l me about that worst model you ever seen. You knew this question was coming. I know you have a horror story.


[00:03:21] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yeah, absolutely. I'm gonna have to throw myself under the bus, I think, because I think when I look back to my early career and look at some of the work I've done, I think that is shocking, you know, and I think back to a law firm I was working in, and it was very early days and I was building the first kind of model out, but it was a bit of a Frankenstein model, which I know is a term that you like to use. And other people had added their bits into the model. I was coming into it to take over the model and adding to it, and I think now with my experience, I would have been saying, clean slate, let's get some good practices in. But I didn't. I was, I was, you know, I was too junior and I tried to add my value into that model and it ended up being an absolute mess. No one really knew the full picture. So yeah, I've got to throw myself in there. My own model was one of the worst I've ever seen.


[00:04:21] Host: Paul Barnhurst: You know, I think if we're honest, all of us have one. That's probably one of the worst they've seen. I have plenty where I'm like, that thing was awful. What was I thinking? Right. Yeah.


[00:04:32] Guest: Sean Mooney: So I think it is. And, you know, I do think that is how you get better at it is getting in there and doing it. And I think looking back at your work and going, I never would have done that. Now, you know, I wouldn't have used that technique. I would have done this. And as well things change, obviously, and particularly, you know, over the past ten years if you think how Excel has hours changed and Power Query became a much more mainstream. When you look back and you think, well, we never would have done that. Well, I probably didn't even know some of these tools or functionalities existed then, you know?


[00:05:05] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, sometimes you don't know what you don't know. And also, you mentioned if you look at the last 15 years, ten years, Excel is a very different tool today than it was. I mean, you got Power Query, Power Pivot, Lambda, dynamic arrays, office scripts, Python, you know, group by pivot by waterfall charts and the list goes checkboxes. There's so many things that completely change the way you work in Excel the let function. I mean, I could probably spend 20 minutes just going through, you know, so many changes.


[00:05:38] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yeah, I totally agree.


[00:05:40] Host: Paul Barnhurst: And which is great. I love it. I mean it's fun. It's hard for somebody that just uses Excel during the day and it doesn't have time or any interest in learning all the new stuff to keep up. I would.


[00:05:51] Guest: Sean Mooney: Say. So, yeah. I think if you're a bit of a passive user and maybe use it for a very small part of your job. Yeah, I can't see how you really get stuck into that detail. I think one, because I'm building models, but two because I genuinely just quite like Excel, I think. Yeah, it's quite cool to go and see what other people are doing. I think being in, you know, the environment and LinkedIn, where you follow a lot of people who are MVP's and they talk about the latest releases and things like that, that makes me want to go. I'm going to go and try that and use it in a model, or try and incorporate that into my processes, the FP&A hub community, things like that, people talking about what they do. So yeah, almost increasing the gap between a kind of a standard Excel user and a more modern Excel user.


[00:06:43] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, I agree, it's definitely widening and over time more and more people will adopt. I think that's always been a challenge with Excel, but kind of moving past that a little bit. I'd love to talk more about you. So you started your career as an accountant. You moved toward modeling. What interested you in modeling? What kind of made you say, hey, you know, just accounting by itself isn't really where I want to be. I want to get more into modeling and other things.


[00:07:08] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yeah. So I did enjoy my career, and I finished as a group finance director for a law firm and UK and a law firm in Australia, and it's quite a broad role when you're in that kind of finance director position. But one part of my job was the model for the group. So a model for each individual entity and then a consolidation model for the full picture. And going through that process, my model became like my right hand man, you know, every question that I got, I would let me see what the model says. And, you know, plug in some variables and see what it looks like. And I would use the model to present to the board as well. In our monthly board meetings, I'd be saying, here's what the model looks like, and this is what it looks like for next month, next quarter. And I really enjoyed that element of the role of using our data to build out a really reliable forecast and then talk about it with the business leaders and influence the strategy of the business. And I was a bit like, I just love this bit. I've got, you know, sort of had like ten years in senior finance and employee roles. And I was like, I'm just going to lean into this area that I just really, really enjoy building the model and working with the business leaders on the financial strategy. So I went all in.


[00:08:35] Host: Paul Barnhurst: How's it been so far going all in. Tell us a little bit about the experience, what it's been like.


[00:08:40] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yeah, I think obviously it's a bit of a jump going from an employee to running your own business. Yes, but I love it. I think it would be apparent to anyone who I speak to that I love excel. I love financial modeling. I love working with new businesses, so being able to do that every day is a pleasure. To be honest, I do really enjoy it. So yeah, it's actually been great. It's challenging managing your own time, trying to keep yourself busy, keep the work coming in. But I think now being a couple of years into it, I feel I've got a bit of stability and yeah, just really enjoy it.


[00:09:18] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Good. I'm glad to hear it. And as you said, you know, I can tell, I can tell I have the right kind of nerd on the podcast because you said, I love Excel. I love financial modeling. I'm like, all right, who's on the right show?


[00:09:30] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.


[00:09:33] Host: Paul Barnhurst: That's great. I've been doing it a couple of years and love it. There's, you know, some real benefits to being on your own. It's not for everybody, but it can be really rewarding. Yeah. And so I'd love to know how the process goes. A potential client comes to you. Let's say they, you know, they need a model and their particular focus. In this case, they may be ready for some kind of transaction, you know, maybe a sale, maybe some kind of acquisition funding, whatever. But they need a model for some kind of transaction they're going to do. Walk me through what kind of questions you ask. Where do you start with that?


[00:10:08] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yeah, totally. So I think you're right. Understanding what their objective is initially. So if that is some sort of investment into the business, understanding why they need that kind of investment, what that you know, generally it's all about cash. It's getting more cash into the business so that they can grow. And as you describe that can be a merger and acquisition getting some investments in. And I think sometimes asking what their end objective is regardless of how they get there. So sometimes business leaders might think, well, we absolutely have to get private equity investments, and we have to give away some equity to get that cash in. And I think understand well why do you need that cash. And invariably it will be because they need to grow the business. They want to grow to a certain size. And I think one of the really interesting parts is asking questions around, well, what if there was another solution? What if we found some sort of debt facility that protected your equity, but still allowed you to achieve that growth over a period of time? And that's such a common conversation I have with people when they're coming in. Or that might be a great idea of kind of getting that venture capital or private equity. But giving away equity comes with such a huge cost further down the line that maybe if we get maybe a loan or a some sort of overdraft cash facility, whatever it may be that gives you that cash. So yeah, that's one of the first conversations I have is where are we trying to get to and why do we need a model to see that. And that allows me then to input the various scenarios and say, well, this is what it might look like. But here's another option that you may not have thought about yet.

[00:11:58] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I’m curious, how often do you find a customer? Go, hey, these other options make more sense. Like you feel like you kind of guided them in a different direction than they never thought of. Is that pretty common? Or what they first come to you is often where they end up?


[00:12:12] Guest: Sean Mooney: I think it depends on the maturity of the business. So if there is a much younger, smaller business, I think they can be very easily influenced in terms of what direction they're going for a more mature business. Sometimes they kind of have the plan and the strategy. I'm just there to help with the model, you know, and I'm not really influencing the strategy of the business because they're so, you know, they're much bigger than kind of needing that, that kind of advice. So yeah, the maturity of the business drives whether they will consider different options, which.


[00:12:50] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I can see that some of them have a very built out strategy. They spent a lot of time, they've thought about it and they're just coming to you for a transaction. Build me a model where others really need the advice. So it's almost kind of like it's two different clients in some ways. Even though they both get a model, there's one that's much more strategic conversation focused. There's some that I'm sure are just a little more, hey, here's everything and build it.


[00:13:17] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yeah. Yeah, totally. And you know.


[00:13:20] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Which you prefer? The two.


[00:13:23] Guest: Sean Mooney: I probably prefer the bigger clients who kind of know the plan because it reduces the kind of guesswork involved, I suppose. Yeah, obviously, you know, not no model is perfect in terms of crystal ball and the future, But I think if you have a much more direct brief of this is what we want you to model, you can get to that result a lot quicker. So I probably prefer that end. And they normally have a lot more money to pay the bills as well, so that helps.


[00:13:58] Host: Paul Barnhurst: There is something to be said for that for sure. I can relate to that one. When you said like no model is perfect. It reminds me of one of my favorite quotes by George Box. All models are wrong. Some are useful.


[00:14:10] Guest: Sean Mooney: That's exactly what I was thinking when I said it. Yeah. You know, I think that any financial modeler must know that quote, you know, and I think it's so true. And I think about it all the time that, you know, don't try and get too stuck into the tiny details, because if you get 80% of the way there, you're probably close enough, you know?


[00:14:32] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, there's a lot of truth to that. I had a manager and it was early in my career before I even switched to finance. I was working in procurement, but I also worked in our systems office. She goes for most of the stuff we want. If I can get the data to 80% because we had terrible data. There were some real problems with the way it was designed. Like, if I can be at least 80% right, that's generally enough to guide me to make a decision to go in the right direction. You know, yes, there are times you need 9095, but nobody needs 100% for almost any decision.


[00:15:03] Guest: Sean Mooney: No, particularly when you're looking at maybe a 3 or 5 year model. You know, everyone knows that when you're predicting that revenue in year five, so much is going to change between now and then, that you can't get bogged down worrying about whether it's 100% accurate, you know.


[00:15:20] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Well, yeah. Like I say, if you can forecast that. Well, you and I are going to Vegas.


[00:15:25] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.


[00:15:28] Host: Paul Barnhurst: So I totally get it. So you model a lot of service businesses. You had worked for a law firm. And I know, you know, service businesses are obviously different than SaaS or product. So where I'd like to start is I think one of the key things in a service business is really kind of building out that revenue schedule, figuring out the model and the clients. So maybe talk a little bit of how you go through that process, what you what you go through to build out that schedule.


[00:15:55] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yeah, totally. I think you're right that particularly law firms, I find that the revenue is the main differentiator to other firms. So you're totally right there with a law firm. You're selling time for money. And generally what you'll see is you've got different grades of lawyer or solicitor in the UK and you're building up WIP work in progress. And I always think of it almost as a pre-revenue calculation. So you're calculating the chargeable hours that a solicitor can charge. What's their general recovery rate on their WIP because they're never going to recover 100% of it. So tracking that time, the recoverability rate of that WIP and then it becoming revenue and going then into your normal debtors and receivables process there. So I think by making sure you're breaking it down into the key key areas of what's the charge out rate, what is there normally accrued WIP per week or per month, and what's their normal or average recovery rate on that WIP? Because when it comes to analyzing that revenue, being able to say, well, we got enough WIP on the book, but actually we only got a 75% recovery rate as opposed to our 80% recovery rate, and identifying that's where the variance was. So for me, it's a full WIP schedule that feeds into the revenue schedule.


[00:17:29] Host: Paul Barnhurst: It makes sense. That leads me to a couple questions. What's the kind of typical delay between when they do the hours and they recognize the revenue. Is it at the end of the project or some of them monthly? What do you typically see in the industry there?


[00:17:44] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yeah. Great question. And it does vary a lot. So I have done a lot of work with personal injury law firms in the UK. And you can have cases that are worth 5,000 pounds, and you can have cases that are worth 500,000 pounds, you know, and that value is going to determine your timescale as well. So the low value that could take maybe 12 to 18 months. Higher value. You're looking 3 to 5 years for that to come in. So that's why the WIP becomes so important in a law firm model. Because it's not on a monthly or quarterly basis. It's certainly going to span the end of your financial year end, and it possibly going to span into 2 or 3 financial years. So having an accurate WIP balance on your books is a really key driver for a law firm. So yeah, it's great that you've picked up on that because that time scale is huge. So you need to be able to track something in that WIP.


[00:18:49] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Makes sense. And so I would imagine you could have some pretty lumpy revenue recognition, you know, a big, huge personal injury case where you're not taking anything until they win. I mean, I've seen some law firms that do that. You don't pay anything if we don't, you know, get you something. And so you have a big, huge settlement at the end of millions of dollars. You're going to recognize that all at the end. And you may have worked on it for 3 or 5 years. So I could imagine you could have some really big swings and variances month to month, quarter to quarter, even potentially year to year. Is that what you see a lot 100%.


[00:19:22] Guest: Sean Mooney: That is exactly what you see. And again, it comes back to this WIP schedule because you'll have for your live caseload, you're going to have an estimated value for those individual cases and an estimated timescale. So if you know that your 50,000 pound cases take three years to settle, you're going to be plotting out those live cases to settle at those points in time, in the future, and turning that WIP into revenue and then that revenue becoming cash, maybe 60 or 90 days, possibly after that. So for the live caseload, I think having that really detailed line by line of where do we think in this sliding scale of value and time, where's this individual case going to land? And then for future cases, newly incepted cases, I think looking at of our intake of cases, what's our normal split between low value mid high and applying that to then on new cases that are coming in. And I could really get stuck into the detail here, which I won't for the purpose of the podcast. But you know, using your pre historic data and where did it come from and things like that to really nail down. Where do we think these new cases are going to land in this forecast? You know, and it's really interesting. I really enjoy building out those really detailed forecasts. You know.


[00:20:47] Host: Paul Barnhurst: FP&A Guy here and as you know, I am very passionate about financial modeling and the Financial Modeling Institute's mission. I have been a huge fan of the FMI for years, and I was super excited when they decided to sponsor the Financial Modelers Corner. I recently completed the Advanced Financial Modeler certification and love the entire experience. It was top notch from start to finish. I am a better modeler today for having completed the certification. I strongly believe every modeler needs to demonstrate they are a qualified financial modeler, and one of the best ways to do that is through the FMI program. Earning the accreditation will demonstrate to your current and future employers that you are serious about financial modeling. What are you waiting for? Visit www.fminstitute.com/podcast and use Code Podcast to save 15% when you enroll in an accreditation today.


[00:21:52] Host: Paul Barnhurst: So yeah, and it feels like a few things if you're building that up by cases. Obviously time is huge. Value assumption is big because it's range. You're not going to know exactly what it's going to be. And two recovery rate. Yeah. Because I'm sure a few percentage points can make a big difference, especially on large value deals. Small value not as much unless you're doing a ton unless you have a lot of volume there. But yeah, so I can see where it's really that revenue schedule because I would imagine the expense. Right. Almost all those lawyers are full time. It's just their salary. Yeah. You hire somebody new, you add some software. But expenses aren't going to vary a ton.


[00:22:34] Guest: Sean Mooney: Correct.


[00:22:35] Host: Paul Barnhurst: But expenses can be really high. One month revenue could be low. You got some real. You got to monitor cash really closely because it's a long time till you collect the cash in many cases.


[00:22:46] Guest: Sean Mooney: 100%. That is exactly right. And I think that's why you find a lot of law firms, particularly in the UK, not 100% certain on the rest of the world, but in the UK, you find that there'll be an element of a debt facility within the law firm because they're carrying that burden of the staff costs and everything we just spoke about there for such a long period of time that you need a funder who's got deep pockets, who can say, well, yeah, don't worry, we'll sit and wait it out with you, you know, and we'll get the cash at the back end. And that brings that complexity into the model of plotting out this revenue and the cash recovery of it, but managing your cash balance and your debt facilities alongside it. Because obviously it's that big jigsaw puzzle of how does this all work and how do we make sure we can, you know, pay the bills at the end of the month and that kind of thing. But I, you know, it's really interesting. I love solving those problems.


[00:23:42] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, it sounds like definitely a lot on, you know, debt facility revolver making sure that okay, what's the minimum cash we need and. Yeah. All right. How much is that going to cost us in interest. And it's just that's part of the cost of doing business there because you have such a long lead time like other businesses. Right. There's lots of them. You think of the big one I think of that's a super long lead. Time is selling airplanes.


[00:24:05] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. You got to spend all that money to build that airplane. Yeah. You got to have a huge debt facility, and then you start recovering a ton of cash as people pay you for all of them. I mean, you might get some upfront. There's, you know, pre-ordering and all that. But I guarantee they spend more on that development of a new plane than they get for at least a few years.


[00:24:24] Guest: Sean Mooney: 100%. Yeah, definitely.


[00:24:26] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Ah, drugs is the other example, right. You spend a ton on drug development. So always interesting to me that was kind of models because I haven't dealt with that a lot. So I think it's kind of fascinating when people talk about those. All right. We're going to talk about one of your favorite tools. Any guesses?


[00:24:43] Guest: Sean Mooney: Excel.


[00:24:44] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Something to do with Excel but a little more specific.


[00:24:47] Guest: Sean Mooney: Power Query.


[00:24:48] Host: Paul Barnhurst: There we go. So when we were coming up with questions, one thing you mentioned is you want to talk about Power Query that sign number three that I know you're a nerd. So you're hitting all the boxes today, but talk to our audience. Why are you such a big advocate of one of my favorite tools, Power Query?


[00:25:08] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yeah, so I do. It's a tool I use every day. I think for me, I remember back in the early days of life before Power Query, before I knew what it was or how to use it. You know, I have memories of these processes of exporting CSV templates from various systems. You save them in folders. You have to go in and delete column K before it goes into this other system. And all this messy kind of data manipulation from multiple sources. And then Power Query is just this solution that it solves everything, you know? So I really enjoy that you can link it into your systems, your accounting system, your operational data systems, payroll, whatever it may be. Do all of your transformations within Power Query, and it will spit out these neat and tidy tables that the work is done. You know, I'm never a fan of having to repeat a process. If there's a way that I can automate it, I'll find a way to automate it. You know, because I don't want to have to go through that brain work again of how do I do this problem that I've already solved once. So Power Query allows you to save those steps in there and you can see exactly what you've done. You know, if you're going to go in and change a step, you can change those individual steps on that one individual source and fix your process. It's well documented. It gives you a nice tidy table. You can refresh your data with a click of a button. It's just brilliant. And I think certainly for a reporting person, if you're management accountant or a finance director, someone who needs to produce reports regularly, Power Query needs to be in your toolbox and you need to be using it all the time because the time saving is huge.


[00:27:03] Host: Paul Barnhurst: That's why I was just going to ask, how much time does Power Query save you?


[00:27:07] Guest: Sean Mooney: Well, I often quote that figure of a 75% time saving, just because I think there's still an element of going in and checking your numbers and checking your reporting. But I'd easily say 75% time reduction because it's so good.


[00:27:23] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Nothing better than seeing somebody take a process that was taking them hours. And it's a couple minutes. It's just like, that is awesome.


[00:27:30] Guest: Sean Mooney: 100%. Yeah.


[00:27:33] Host: Paul Barnhurst: That is a great one. So we've covered Power Query. We've covered kind of revenue schedules. Back to revenue schedules for one second. There's one other question I wanted to ask. You know, let's say somebody's listening and they have not built, you know, a revenue schedule. Maybe they're working with the law firm or some kind of professional services that has that similar type thing. What advice would you add them maybe like things to watch out for or kind of how to start to get comfortable, you know, building that type of revenue schedule. Obviously Whip is critical, but any other advice you give just if you were thinking back and advice you wish someone had given you when you started building these type of models?


[00:28:08] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yeah. Yeah, totally. It probably comes back to those time scales involved. So when you think about WIP schedules, you know, the WIP schedules that I've built in the past have probably been handed on to other people or been inherited from other people, or certainly the caseloads will have been inherited from other people. And if you think about the risks involved there is this WIP good WIP, because, you know, the worst outcome is that you're reporting that you have this WIP on your balance sheet. And it's actually not good WIP. The case has already failed. There's something wrong with it. The devaluation of that individual case has been massively reduced. So I think having some really good controls that you haven't got a black hole in your WIP schedule of just WIP going in there and it's just stagnating in your WIP balance and it's never, ever going to become revenue and cash further down the line. So a good trick that I always used to do was to take out any new cases and any, any new revenue, pretend the law firm stopped today and make sure that throughout the rest of your forecast that the WIP completely unwinds and the revenue completely unwinds back to zero at the end of the timescales, so that you know that everything that's going into that schedule eventually comes out of it. Because the worst thing, as I say, is this black hole of stagnated WIP that has no value in the real world. So yeah, that's a key one.


[00:29:44] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Well, as I heard it there, quality of inputs matter. And don't leave a black hole on your balance sheet in this case WIP.


[00:29:52] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yeah yeah yeah.


[00:29:56] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah I kind of as I was listening to that, those were made think of, of all the horror stories of, you know, balance sheet surprises.


[00:30:03] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yeah.


[00:30:04] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right. So now we're gonna ask you some of our more standard questions that we ask guests first. One, what's your favorite Excel shortcut?


[00:30:11] Guest: Sean Mooney: I think my favorite is control. Left square bracket to jump to the source of the formula. It's probably not. The one I use most is F2. Just looking at what is this formula actually telling me? You know what control left square bracket. I love jumping to find the source of the information.


[00:30:30] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, that's a great one. And a lot of people like to do that and F5 you know. So those are good combinations. F2 is a very common one. So yeah love it. All right. As you look back over your career, what's the one lesson you've learned that's helped you the most?


[00:30:45] Guest: Sean Mooney: I think it is the Power Query lesson, you know, and that time saving. But I suppose to get outside the Power Query because we have already discussed it. I think looking back and checking your work, you know, we were speaking earlier about how you learn lessons and how have we if we went and looked back at some of our work from ten years ago now, Paul, I'm sure you'd agree you'd find some things you'd say, I'd never do that nowadays. So I think constantly revisiting your work and thinking, is this as efficient or as useful as it can be? Because things change and you can always update it and learn from it. So I think having the ability to go and question yourself, can I make that a bit better, I think is a great lesson.


[00:31:35] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Agreed. I think that is a really good lesson. So thank you for sharing that one. All right. What's the most unique kind of funniest fun thing you've ever built a model for in your personal life or used a spreadsheet for?


[00:31:47] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yes.


[00:31:48] Guest: Sean Mooney: So if you're aware of Oasis in the UK and they are doing the comeback tour in June, July this year, and over here in the UK, there was a mad rush to buy Oasis tickets and me and all of my friends, basically everyone we knew, everyone was on the laptops, on the mobile phones trying to get these Oasis tickets.


[00:32:16] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Sure.


[00:32:17] Guest: Sean Mooney: So I was on my laptop with Oasis on one screen, and it gave you a countdown of counts of your position in the queue. You know, 160,000in the queue to get through to tickets. And on my other screen I had an Excel spreadsheet with a Power Query pulling data from the URL source of the countdown clock, and a timestamp. So I would timestamp with like I think control shift and semicolon to timestamp, and then it would pull in what the what position I was in the queue, how much the queue had gone down since the last timestamp, and then work out based on the time since the last timestamp and the reduction in the queue, how long I've got left in the queue, and how quick the queue was moving down, and I had it producing graphs on the screen and I was like taking screenshots of the graphs and like putting it into the WhatsApp group of all the lads of like. Based on my estimations, I think I've got five more hours in the queue, you know, but that is a really, really nerdy.


[00:33:24] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Now, did you take video? Did you record all this? This could be a great YouTube video.


[00:33:31] Guest: Sean Mooney: I'll still have the spreadsheet somewhere saved as a countdown clock or something in my folder.


[00:33:39] Host: Paul Barnhurst: You're welcome to share that. We can always put it in the show notes. That could be fun. I love that. That's a great one. Did you get the tickets though?


[00:33:45] Guest: Sean Mooney: I've got the tickets.


[00:33:47] Host: Paul Barnhurst: That's the most important thing.


[00:33:48] Host: Paul Barnhurst: And it was a good concert?


[00:33:50] Guest: Sean Mooney: Well, it's on the 19th of July.


[00:33:52] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Oh it comes up this summer.


[00:33:54] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Got it. Well, yeah, I'll have to check back in to let us know how the concert is. Hopefully it was worth all the wait. I know it should be. That should be a great experience. But I love that. That's when you know you're dedicated and you love your Power Query and your spreadsheets, your calculator.


[00:34:08] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yeah.


[00:34:09] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I probably would have done that in my head. Like, okay, I was one about another four hours. No. You're like I'm getting precise here.


[00:34:15] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yeah. Yeah. 


[00:34:18] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right. We're going to move into our rapid fire section. I know you've listened to the show, so you know the basic ground rules, but I'll lay them out anyway. No. It depends. It's, you know, one or the other, you give your answer, we go through them all real quick, and then at the end you can elaborate on 1 or 2, because I recognize there's nuance to many. Yeah. So first one circular references. Yes or no? No VBA and models. Yes or no?


[00:34:44] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yes.


[00:34:45] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Okay. Do you prefer a horizontal model where you're using lots of sheets, or a vertical model where all your schedules are in one sheet?


[00:34:53] Guest: Sean Mooney: Vertical.


[00:34:54] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Vertical. All right. Excel dynamic arrays. Yes or no.


[00:34:58] Guest: Sean Mooney: 100%. Yes.


[00:35:00] Host: Paul Barnhurst: How about fully dynamic models with dynamic arrays?


[00:35:04] Guest: Sean Mooney: Not quite.


[00:35:06] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Okay. External workbook links.


[00:35:09] Guest: Sean Mooney: No.


[00:35:10] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Okay, good. You can stay on the show.


[00:35:14] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Named ranges. Yes or no?


[00:35:15] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yes.


[00:35:17] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right. Do you follow a formal standards like one of the boards, like smart or Fast or some of those that are out there when building your models?


[00:35:24] Guest: Sean Mooney: No. Okay.


[00:35:26] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Should financial modelers learn Python in Excel?


[00:35:30] Guest: Sean Mooney: No.


[00:35:31] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right. What about Power Query? I know the answer here.


[00:35:34] Guest: Sean Mooney: 100%. Yes.


[00:35:36] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. It's good if you're going to say no. I was going to be like, all right, something happened. What about power BI?


[00:35:41] Guest: Sean Mooney: Same as Python. It's useful, but it's not necessary.


[00:35:45] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Okay. Fair enough. Will your favorite tool Excel ever die?


[00:35:50] Guest: Sean Mooney: Not in my lifetime. Certainly not.


[00:35:53] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I've got that a few times. I had a few that say. I hope not in my lifetime.


[00:35:57] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yeah.


[00:35:58] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Will AI build the models for us in the future?


[00:36:01] Guest: Sean Mooney: They will help.


[00:36:02] Guest: Sean Mooney: But they won't build the full model.


[00:36:04] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Okay. Fair enough. Sheet cell-protection in models. Yes or no? Yeah. All right. And then do you believe financial models are the number one corporate decision making tool.


[00:36:16] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yes. And if they aren't, they should be.


[00:36:19] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right. And then what's your lookup function of choice. What do you go to for your lookup Xlookup. I definitely like it. Xlookup. Good deal. All right. Is there any of those you want to elaborate on your answer?


[00:36:33] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yeah. So there's a couple of quick ones VBA, I like VBA or office scripts nowadays for me, not so much for the client, so I'll use a lot of VBA if I've got multiple entities and I need to maybe do the same thing a lot of times for say, seven, eight, nine, ten companies, I'll use VBA to maybe run through those and do it. I like to avoid having the VBA in the final client copy really if it's unnecessary there. So I use it as a tool, not as an end user tool.


[00:37:08] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Makes sense.


[00:37:09] Guest: Sean Mooney: Python and power BI, I think is great for the data visualization. And I know Python, if you're getting into the realms of like really technical forecasting, I think it can be really useful. I think as a financial modeler, they're not absolutely necessary tools in your toolkit, but I think they definitely add value. You know, I certainly use a bit of power BI, but I think you've got power BI experts who will probably do a better job than I ever would. I'd rather stick in the models. I think there's probably another couple that I wanted to comment on, but I can't think which ones they were.


[00:37:46] Host: Paul Barnhurst: That's all right. Those were some good comments. If you think of them, let me know. Otherwise we'll kind of just move on here and wrap up in a moment. So the next question, if you could offer one piece of advice to our audience to be a better financial modeler, what would be your one piece of advice?


[00:38:04] Guest: Sean Mooney: I would take a blank Excel book and a data set. Build a full model from top to bottom. And then I would roll it forward for a month, a quarter, a year, whatever data you have available to it. And you will find problems in there. And you're really stress test that model. So blank page, start from scratch, work it all out and then stress test it. And you will learn a lot about your model and about your techniques.


[00:38:33] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Good advice for stress testing. You know, it's like the one I've heard is put all your assumptions to zero and see if the model goes to zero.


[00:38:41] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yes.


[00:38:42] Guest: Sean Mooney: Great. Great one. Yeah. Really good. Yeah.


[00:38:45] Host: Paul Barnhurst: When it doesn't it's like oh what did we do.


[00:38:48] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yeah absolutely.


[00:38:50] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right. So if our audience wants to learn more about you or potentially get in touch, what's the best way for them to do that?


[00:38:56] Guest: Sean Mooney: Yeah. So they can find me on LinkedIn at Sean Mooney. Or you can visit sjfinance.co.uk. You can book a call and speak to me. Take a look at what I do there. But as you know, I genuinely do take an interest in Excel and models and things, so more than happy to discuss it.


[00:39:14] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right. Great. Well thank you Sean. So much fun having you on the show. I really enjoyed chatting with you. And I know the audience will enjoy it as well.


[00:39:22] Guest: Sean Mooney: Paul, it's been great to be here. Really, really pleased to be part of it. So thank you very much.


[00:39:27] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. Thank you. Financial Modelers Corner was brought to you by the Financial Modeling Institute. This year. I completed the Advanced Financial Modeler certification and it made me a better financial modeling. What are you waiting for? Visit www.fminstitute.com/podcast and use Code Podcast to save 15% when you enroll in one of the accreditations today.

Paul Barnhurst
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