Episode 7 - Are LAMBDAs & Dynamic Arrays the future of Financial Modeling? A lively discussion with 4 modeling experts.

Written By Paul Barnhurst
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Show Notes

Welcome to Financial Modeler's Corner (FMC) where we discuss the art and science of financial modeling with your host Paul Barnhurst. Financial Modeler's Corner is sponsored by Financial Modeling Institute (FMI), the most respected accreditations in Financial Modeling globally.

In this episode, your host, Paul Barnhurst is joined by 4 fabulous guests, namely, Jeff Robson, Danielle Stein Fairhurst, Craig Hatmaker & Ian Schnoor. They are all highly accomplished and respected modelers in the Financial Modeling profession.  In this episode they share thoughts on Dynamic Arrays and LAMBDAs.

 

Jeff is a Financial Modeler, Business Analyst, International Trainer & Presenter. Danielle Stein is a Financial Modeler, Author, and Corporate Trainer based in Australia. Craig is a retired Financial Modeler and is a 5G (fifth generation) modeling enthusiast, and Ian Schnoor is the

Executive Director at the Financial Modeling Institute (FMI), which is also the sponsor of this Podcast.

 Listen to this episode as the Guests talk about: 

·      Why it is important to keep current on the latest developments in modeling

·      LAMBDAs what they are and how they could revolutionize financial modeling

·      Dynamic Arrays what they are and how they work and what it is like to build a model using Dynamic Arryas

·      How Dynamic Arrays will make auditing models easier

·      The guests favorite Dynamic Array formula

Sign up for the Advanced Financial Modeler Accreditation or FMI Fundamentals Today and receive 15% off by using the special show code ‘Podcast’.

Visit www.fminstitute.com/podcast and use code Podcast to save 15% when you register.

Go to https://earmarkcpe.com, download the app, take the quiz and you can receive CPE credit with this episode.

Quotes: 

“Python brings a suite of libraries that can do some amazing things.” 

“You don’t have to learn Python, Dynamic Arrays, or LAMBDAs for Financial Modeling, but you need to know it exists to stay relevant.”

“Dynamic arrays force you to have consistent formulas.”

“LAMBDAs are functions that write functions using native excel functions.”

“Learn the basics and start experimenting.”

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    Transcript

     

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Welcome to Financial Modeler’s Corner, where we discuss the art and science of financial modeling with your host, Paul Barnhurst. Financial Modelers Corner is sponsored by Financial Modeling Institute.

    Alrighty! Well, welcome everybody to this LinkedIn Live. So this is the first LinkedIn Live we've done for the Financial Modeler’s Corner, so I'm really excited. I'm the host, Paul Barnhurst, and I have four fabulous guests here with me, and we're going to talk about financial modeling, Lambdas, Dynamic Arrays.

    So we're going to go ahead and just give each of our guests here a chance to introduce themselves briefly, and then we'll jump into some of the questions we have.

    So why don't we start with you, Jeff, if you could just give the audience an introduction about yourself.

    Guest: Jeff Robson

    Yeah, sure. Thanks for having us on your show, Paul.

    My name is Jeff. I run a business in Perth in Western Australia called Access Analytic, which I set up about 20 odd years ago. So we do consulting, training, financial modeling, and Power BI reporting, and budgeting, and forecasting, and all sorts of things like that.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Great. Thanks, Jeff.

    Craig?

    Guest: Craig Hatmaker:

    Hi, I'm retired!

    I'm Craig Hatmaker. I've been retired now for about a month, so August 1st was my first day to retirement. I've been doing financial systems before spreadsheets were around, and I've been doing financial modeling for some large companies like Canon Inc. But I have recently been working for a local government and right now, I'm just enjoying life traveling around.

    I'm currently in Pennsylvania. I'm currently outside of Harrisonburg, Harrisburg, excuse me. I'm looking forward to having this conversation with some of these great people.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Well, thank you for joining us, Craig, and congratulations on retirement, so, I hope you continue to enjoy that.

    Danielle!

    Guest: Danielle Stein Fairhurst:

    Hi! Thanks for having me back again! Great to see everybody! My name's Danielle Stein Feyhurst. I'm a financial modeling specialist. I'm based in Sydney, in Australia, but like the others, I do get to travel quite a lot, so I do training and consulting mostly in the area of financial modeling.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Thanks, Daniela!

    Ian?

    Guest & Co-host: Ian Schnoor

    Thanks, Paul and Craig, congratulations on your retirement. I didn't know that as well. Good for you, we aspire to that!

    Hi everyone! I'm Ian Schnoor and it's really great to be here as well. I'm actually going to be co hosting a little bit with Paul. My entire career has been spent in financial modeling, and so it's a real treat to be here tonight, well, this evening for me here in Toronto, Canada.

    I have watched and been part of podcasts with Craig, Jeff and Danielle, and I know you're in for a real treat here, today, this evening, this morning, this afternoon, wherever you are, and as I said, my background started in banking, and then I ran a training company, a financial modeling training company for 20 years called the Marquee Group, and I probably taught tens of thousands of people financial modeling all over the world. More recently, I'm currently the executive director of the Financial Modeling Institute, I think the world's only financial modeling accreditation organization and thrilled that we are the sponsor of Financial Modelers Corner, the podcast. I’ve gotten to know Paul really well, and I have been really excited and completely into financial modeling for a long, long time, and really excited for you to hear from these guests today, because there's some really exciting new developments in Excel that are going to change the way we all do things.

    So, great to be here!

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Thanks, Ian! And we're really excited to have you as the sponsor of the podcast and we love what Financial Modeling Institute's doing, but we're going to jump into our first question because everybody here in the panel knows it was about two weeks ago now, Microsoft announced that they're going to add Python into excel, right? It's in beta, they've released it in beta and it will be coming, so I'd love just real quick to maybe get some thoughts on what you think about that announcement, what it might mean and Craig, why don't we start with you on that one?

    Guest: Craig Hatmaker

    Well, first, I think it's real exciting, and it's going to play well into something I'm going to be discussing, because one of the things that Python brings is a suite of libraries that can do some amazing things. If you're an analyst, you're going to love the charts that it can create, you're going to love some of the libraries.

    One of the libraries that I'm most excited about, is called RE, which means Regular Expressions. Regular expressions is a wonderful thing. It's in VBA, but it's not in Excel. What does that allow us to do? It allows us to find special patterns within strings, such as do you have a string? And in that string, is it a web address? Is it a telephone number, a social security number, a name, a regular address? So, some of the things that you might need to be doing, especially in FP&A, pulling information out of data, Python is wonderful and I just got it yesterday, so I'm very excited about it.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    I can tell! Danielle, what's your thoughts on it?

    Guest: Danielle Stein Fairhurst

    Yeah, I can just see we've got a comment from Joanne saying it's really exciting, but gee, we have another whole language to learn to stay competitive, and that's exactly what I was going to say. A lot of people ask me that they go, “Oh, my gosh, I've got to learn Python now”.

    So, I think it's important not to freak out. I think Microsoft is doing a fantastic job of staying relevant, and it's really great as Craig says, that we have it like all in one place so that you don't have to leave Excel to get the advantage of using Python. But I think it's important to know that you don't have to learn Python, you know, you can still do a lot of really cool stuff in Excel without learning it, so don't let it kind of put you off. I know it's really hard to know like where to start, but certainly for financial modeling I really don't think it's necessary to learn Python, not just yet anyway.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Yeah, I would agree with that, and I will say with it coming, you know, with all these generative tools that can help write code, there's sometimes, you know, you could ask others to help with that. So there's things that will make it easier where you don't have to be a coder, nor do you have to use Python to be effective. I think that's a really important thing to keep in mind.

    Jeff, any thoughts from your end?

    Guest: Jeff Robson

    Yeah, I think the most interesting things for me is be able to do the visualizations as Craig mentioned. Potentially the other interesting thing I think is being able to have machine learning and AI sort of stuff built in as well. And I'm not sure, I would imagine a number of people have already started playing or started using the advanced data analysis that's in ChatGPT, and that generates Python scripts, so potentially you can use that to generate your Python scripts and create like a repeatable process for analyzing your data.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Agreed! We have a couple of comments coming in and, you know, one's talking about how it could cost a little bit more and we're still waiting for official word from Microsoft, but I've heard that as well. So, you know, that's one potential drawback, but obviously that's  a decision Microsoft will make, not one any of us can really do much on and then the second and I'll just address this real quick, you know, how spooked are we that private data is calculated in the Cloud somewhere in a Python script?

    I would say you know, Microsoft is one of the most secure companies in the world. They've put the security in place There's a lot of stuff calculated in the Cloud today. Personally. I wouldn't be worried I don't know if anyone else has a different feeling on this panel, but I feel safe that they've done their homework.

    Guest: Jeff Robson

    You know, Excel file is, if you're using the Cloud version, is calculated in the Cloud as well…

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    That's what I thought, yeah, that's what I was thinking, so!

    Guest: Jeff Robson

    If you’re comfortable using Excel online, your data in the cloud already.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    That's the other thing I was thinking as well, Jeff! Thank you! That's what I thought.

    So, why don't we go ahead and jump in here? You know, we want to talk about Dynamic Arrays and Lambdas. Why don't we start with just a little bit of explanation of what Dynamic Arrays are, right? They've really become a big talking point over the last few years as they've only been out I think what, 2019 - 2020, somewhere in there is when they came out.

    So, Danielle, could you start by just talking a little bit about what they are and why they've kind of been such a hot topic?

    Guest: Danielle Stein Fairhurst

    Well, the idea of a Dynamic Array is that you only have to calculate it in one single cell and the rest of it just kind of spills and it automatically copies either down or to the right, which is such a fundamental change from the way that Excel worked previously, because before you would have to do your calculation and then you would need to copy it down or copy it across. And for financial modeling, particularly one of the most critical things is to have as few unique formulas as possible, to try to have consistency in your formulas. And that's something that, as a financial modeler is really important to try to make sure that you have consistent formulas and using dynamic arrays kind of forces you to have consistent formulas. And I think that's why it's just so fantastic for financial modelers, but it is again, a really different way of using it.

    And even though it's been, probably using Excel and even though it's been out for a couple of years, I think people still struggle to kind of get used to how it works. And the other thing I'll mention is that you need to be using 365 or the very, very latest versions of Excel in order for that to work.

    We had a question just previously about Python and some of these new techniques and whether we would need to pay extra licenses to Microsoft to have this new functionality, and I don't know the answer to that question, but I do know that most of this new functionality is usually only available in 365, and I know a lot of, I've had quite a few clients, especially recently, you know, they're not using 365, which means that they don't have access to to some of these new features.

    So, that's just something to consider, that you do need to be using 365 and you do need to have a 365 license in order to get access to this.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Great call out there, and it's important to remember that as you're thinking about it. That's one of the reasons I like 365 is you get those monthly updates, but yes, there is a monthly cost. I think it's well worth it for what Microsoft has done the last few years.

    And Jeff, could you maybe give an example of how would you use a Dynamic Array? Like, I know you've built some models using Dynamic Arrays, I remember watching one of your webinars early on when they first came out. So, could you maybe just kind of talk through, how should people think about it? I'm like, what is the just a general use case of how you think about using a Dynamic Array?

    Guest: Jeff Robson

    You know, like Danielle was saying, you can use them in your financial models and Craig will no doubt give us a demonstration of an extension, of some pretty amazing ways of using them in financial modeling, but they really make your model much simpler, much easier, you know, much more extendable, more reliable. Rather than sort of copying and pasting your formulas across and down, you just put one formula, it automatically copies itself across and down. And so, yeah, as you mentioned, you know, we build a very simple financial model, but the entire thing, three way model was all done using, and I'm trying to make a race, you know, just adjusted one cell and we could change it from being 60 periods to 72 periods, for example, and every single formula would copy itself across, the summary was automatically generated, you know. Everything in the model was generated using Dynamic Arrays, and we had one column with formulas in it and everything else in there was generated with the Dynamic Array formulas.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    It is really amazing to think that they can resize and adjust based on changing an input. Right? That dynamic nature. I think that covers Dynamic Arrays. The other subject we're going to talk a little bit about, and we'll come back to it, but it covers what the basics of they are, but I just have a question here. You know, Craig, I know you've been a big proponent of using Lambdas. That's something Microsoft also came out with that allows you to write custom functions, formulas in the editor there inside Excel versus via VBA. But maybe can you talk a little bit to our audience of what Lambdas are and kind of how you think about them in Excel?

    Guest: Craig Hatmaker

    Lambdas are a function that writes functions using Excel's native functions.

    Guest: Jeff Robson

    Well, I'm glad you simplified that for us!

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Lots of Fs. I like it!

    Guest: Craig Hatmaker

    So, first of all, it is all exclusively Excels native functions. There's nothing else in there. So if you know how to use Sums, you can use that in a formula and you can put that inside a Lambda. The only difference is with the Lambda, one of the important differences that I feel are real important is that you can now create a Lambda that accepts parameters. So just like the function Sum, which accepts a parameter, what range do you want to Sum, you can create a Lambda that says, I want to calculate dividends, and here are the things I need, the parameters I need for my dividends, and it will spit out those dividends. So, you can create your own custom functions using Lambda to do the things that are specific to your industry or specific to your business. And this is wonderful. But they are scary. They are not for most people and that's where we're going to talk about 5g and that's a little bit later on in the discussion.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Yeah, we'll we'll get to that here, in a few minutes.

    Ian anything you'd like to add to the conversation any thoughts you have at this point?

    Guest & Co-host: Ian Schnoor

    Well, listen, just enjoying it, and I tend to agree with everything that's being said. I'm personally very excited about Dynamic Arrays and the usage of them in models, but I always come at it from a position that a model is a tool that we want to build as simply as possible to capture all the relevant detail, but it is dynamic you know, an organic way so that it is clear and can communicate a clean story and so I'm always trying to push for clean design, clean approach to the way people do things. Dynamic Arrays can help with that. It's really exciting! Just to elaborate on something Danielle said, I mean, she mentioned that when you have a dynamic array and it just automatically fills a formula 10 years, and it keeps a consistent formula in case someone didn't get that, with a Dynamic Array you're not allowed to change what's in, that's the nice thing. You physically cannot go to column 678 or change it. It is not possible, which means, if you like the first column, you know the rest have to be correct because no one has the ability to change it. So, I just want to emphasize, and I like the comment that Joanne made earlier about the fact that this is all a scary, you know now, in Excel, there's all sorts of other things you can do, Python, Lambdas, Dynamic Arrays VBA, PowerPivot, etc, and I would say you don't need, I agree with Danielle a hundred percent, you know, modeling is so much more than just Excel and modeling is about understanding a business, an industry. It's understanding how to design data. It's understanding how to speak a language and tell a story. And the Excel is the tool we use, but you know, listen I've met phenomenal modelers that really don't know VBA or other tools. So, these are options you can add to your skillset, but I don't think you need to feel like you need to be mastering any of these tomorrow in order to stay up. This will all happen in time.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    And I would 100 percent agree with you on that in that, right? You don't need to know everything about Excel, you don't need to know Python, you don't need to know Lambdas. You don't even need to know Dynamic Arrays necessarily to build a good model. Now the things you could do with them, could it make things easier? Sure. Are there benefits, pros and cons of learning them? Of course there are, but the key, like you said, is goes so far beyond Excel. You need to be technically proficient to do your job, but then you got the business modeling, the decision making, the conversations with the business, all those other things that are so critical to the process and that play a very big role.

    Guest: Danielle Stein Fairhurst

    I agree you don't need to know Python, you don't need to know Lambdas, you don't need to know Dynamic Arrays, but you do need to know what they are. And how they can help you, you know, and I think that's important to stay up to date with all of these new features because you need to stay relevant and yes, you don't need to go into a huge amount of detail of it, but you just need to keep up to date and know what these things are.

    And just a point on Lambdas, I do love the fact that they simplify things for the user, but yeah, don't kind of get too bogged down in having to learn them, I suppose, I guess I just wanted to mention that as well.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Yeah, no, great part and I do agree. I think it's really important that people keep up to date on the changes in Excel.

    Cause you know, with what I kind of like to refer to it as modern Excel, when you think of Power Query, Power Pivot, you know, Dynamic Arrays, Lambdas, Python, you can do a lot more with it than you can without it. There are things you can do with those tools that you just couldn't do without them.

    And so it's good to know about them, it's good to understand it, and over time, they'll become more and more accepted.

    And I have to laugh at this one, well see, Robert asks, side discussion, is it Modeler or Modeller with two L's? Should we have a vote? Who goes with one L? I'm probably the only one.

    Guest: Jeff Robson: Yes, it's the U. S. spelling.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    I was going to say, Craig would go with it as well, I wasn't sure where Ian would go on that one, being in Canada, but…

    Guest: Danielle Stein Fairhurst

    Yeah, my dummies book was translated into American, I think I've told you this, Paul. I wrote it in English and it was translated into American because you guys.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Yes, and they are different languages.

    Guest & Co-host: Ian Schnoor

     I go both ways on that one, actually. I'm global!

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    I do go both ways sometimes as well, but thank you, Robert, I thought that'd be a fun little side conversation there, so, alrighty!

    Next here, I would just like to get your thoughts, Jeff. You've built some models, like I said, with Dynamic Arrays. So how have you found that? Have you found it easier? I mean, do you think the time's coming when all models will be built with Dynamic Arrays? Kind of what's your take there?

    Guest: Jeff Robson

    Yeah, I think it certainly makes a lot of things easier. I think like all of these tools that we're talking about, you know, it's about using them when it's appropriate, so if you have them in your skill set, you have them in your toolbox, you can pull out the right tool for the right job. To me, that's really what all of these things are about. And they will make life a lot easier for many models. And, you know, like Power Query, like Python, Dynamic Arrays, like Lambdas, all these things can certainly improve them if you know how to use them.

    So that, to me it's, you know, what you'll see when Craig shows us his model in 5G, you can do some amazing things with Lambdas, so if you know how to use them, you can build entire models using them, so it's a really fantastic tool, I think. But, you know, do I use them for absolutely everything in every single model? Not necessarily.

    Guest: Danielle Stein Fairhurst

    Can I just ask a question of Ian? Is that something that will be included in the FMI exams going forward to use Dynamic Arrays as when you are completing the AFM exam?

    Guest & Co-host: Ian Schnoor

    Yeah, it's an excellent question.

    So, you know, we at FMI, we're completely agnostic as to how people build models. We want to see that people can take a case study that has information in it and convert that case study into and they effectively know this right, you know they start with three years of historical financial statements on the AFM exam, and we expect people to build a beautiful, well designed, dynamic, three statement, integrated model with all the requisite schedules and calculations and all the calculations working well, but we don't really, we don't care how, I love always looking at the different ranges of solutions and model results that come in when people submit their exams. Some people build very vertically, some people build very horizontally. People have personal views, but that's not relevant at FMI. We just want to see that they are all clean and organized.

    So I actually am excited to see the first day when someone submits an AFM exam built with Dynamic Arrays. I think that'd be fantastic. And we'll showcase it. Of course that will be acceptable! Now, no one needs to use our learning materials, of course, they don't include Dynamic Arrays in the learning materials, but we'll probably include them, maybe ask you to help with that at some point, but people can build their models any way they like on the exam.

    And as I said, I'm excited to see the first person who does their exam with Dynamic Arrays.

    Guest: Danielle Stein Fairhurst

    Yeah, I was wondering that because I don't know if you saw, but I just announced this morning, I'm going to do a financial modeling with Dynamic Arrays at the Global Excel Summit, and it's just been released.

    Guest & Co-host: Ian Schnoor

    I can't wait to see it! We'll showcase it when it happens, because again, our position, FMI is not this is the right way or that's the right way, but what we all can agree on globally is the need to build models that are correct, accurate, that can tell a story that can communicate your message and that, you know, have variable involved, can run scenarios, etc.

    So how you get there, there's a lot of ways and I'm thrilled that people are doing things differently!

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    I just might have to see if I can be the first one since I have to take that test here in a few months! I better get practicing if I'm going to do that, so...

    Danielle, I have a thought for you. What's your perspective in general on using Dynamic Arrays today and maybe kind of a little more long term and Lambdas when it comes to building models. Are you using them in most of your models or how do you think about it?

    Guest: Danielle Stein Fairhurst

    Yeah, I haven't felt the need to use Lambdas a lot yet, but I'm sure I will, and Dynamic Arrays, I tend to sort of use them sparingly. Obviously, I know that I need to make sure that the client's using 365, of course, and I tend to use them intermingling with the functionality of, you know, there's these new functions in Excel, which are just fantastic and, even though they've only been out for a short time, I don't know how I lived without them, and they are by definition a Dynamic Array, so I'm using Dynamic Arrays all the time. So things like, you know, sequence or filter or that sort of stuff it's so so useful in modeling.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Thanks. And I just have a  comment here, Jeff just commented on Jacob Kearns, he asked a question: ”And it was the idea that the arrays would be the output or would it be used in conjunction with Power Query for final output consumption?” You know, and Jeff commented on that: “It just made clear Dynamic Arrays can be used for both calculation and output. PQ is best suited for acquiring and transforming the source data”.

    So really, they're different. They're not something that necessarily works together. They both serve different kind of functions within Excel. I want to get Craig in here to talk a little bit. I know you're a big proponent of using Lambda , you've done a lot of work around that you're working on a project called 5G modeling, so can you tell our audience, you know, why you're a big fan and a little bit about what 5G is and what you're doing?

    Guest: Craig Hatmaker

    Okay, so answer to earlier questions “Do you need to know Lambda?” Well, 5G is saying no, you don't because we're gonna let someone else who's an expert, someone who's advanced in Excel is going to do as a subject matter, an industry expert, create that Lambda for you, and then they're going to put it on the Internet, make it available so you can just download it and use it into your model. It's as simple as bringing in a function and using it. You don't need to know how it works. It's just like in Python. You don't know how those libraries work, you just use them. You don't know how Sum works, but you just use them because you know they were created by an expert, you know they've been vetted and tested. That's what 5G is about.

    So people are going to be using Lambda, so it's native Excel. When you deliver your project, when you deliver your workbook to a client, it's a .xlsx. It's got no VBA, It's got no office scripts, it's got no add ins that are needed to use it. 5G is about creating these components by experts that you can then use without having to know exactly how they work to do complex things such as calculate dividends, do debt sculpting with interest averaging, things that would maybe require circular references or no longer require circular references. That's what 5G is about, solving complex problems and putting them into a simple function that you can download and import, use into your Excel as though they were a native Excel function.

    So no, you don't need to know Lambda, unless you want to be a Lambda component creator. Now that, yes, you need to know Lambda then, but if you're a modeler, if you're a fast modeler, you can use these Lambdas in your fast model. You can use Dynamic Arrays in fast model. We have converted fast models to Dynamic Arrays. We chose fast models because I'm in touch with Andrew Berkeley about it and we feel like fast models probably appeal to people that have less technical skills than some of the other model standards.

    So, if we can make these five G components work for fast models, they can work for any model. That's the whole concept of five G.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    How will those be kind of stored? How would people get those? Are they out there now, or kind of talk a little bit about, if I wanted to use one tomorrow, what would I do?

     

    Guest: Craig Hatmaker

    So you could go to your browser and you could type in this keyword right now. So it's important to know that 5G is in its infancy because Lambda is in its infancy and it's growing. 5G grew out of an IT methodology known as CVSE, which is component based software engineering. So we use those unique terms CVSE Excel Lambda as keywords. When you go Google them, you will find some of my libraries out there So, you use Google to search for CVSE Excel lambdas. Later on it will be 5g Lambdas and it will probably be available through outlets like Eloquence.com and other people will be marketing that. I expect Jeff one day will have his company marketing them as well. Once you find them, they will be in something that's been known as a GitHub gist. I know that's a technical term, but it doesn't really matter, it's just a place where these Lambdas can live, and it's a place where advanced formula environment, which is a free add in by Microsoft Excel, Microsoft offers this add in that will import directly from GitHub gist into your Excel model. So if you find it in Google, you copy the address, put it into advanced formula environment, it will be imported into Excel. And once it's imported, you no longer need the add in. You now have the component and you can start using it right away.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Thank you, Craig! And we'll get the link from you, and put that in the show notes for where people can find it. I know sometimes that can be a little scary. You hear a Lambda advanced editor downloading all those things, but it's no different than any other add in that you add to your computer.

    You're basically going somewhere, you're downloading it, and it makes new functions available. All you need to do is know how that new function works. You don't have to know the details behind the Lambda. So really, I will, you know, back up what was Craig saying, it isn't as scary as it seems. I've downloaded some other people's Lambdas before from GitHub and by no means i'm a programmer. I don't write VBA I don't know Python at this point, but I've used other people's so it's definitely relatively easy to do, you just have to kind of make the commitment to give it a try, is what I would say.

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    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Jeff, just kind of changing gears a little bit, we've talked there on you know Lambda a little bit, I'm curious, do you think Dynamic Arrays will make modeling easier on the whole, or do you find it's a little bit harder right now still when you're trying to do Dynamic Arrays after so many years of, you know, being used to drag over, drag down the kind of traditional way we model.

    How has that transition been for you?

    Guest: Jeff Robson

    Yeah, it's a good question, Paul. I've found particularly when I was getting used to them, like it actually took me much longer to build the model cause I had to put a lot more thought into how I was actually going to do the formulas in the first place. So, perhaps there's more thought that would need to go into the design of the model and construction of that. But then once you've done that and constructed the formulas you need, or you're using the the existing 5G, you know, Lambdas, whatever, once you've got those in there and built the formulas you need, that actually makes the rest of the model much, much easier.

    So it's a bit of a, you know, in some ways you go, it'll be easier to just copy this formula across rather than putting a bit more thought and effort into actually building something that would automatically extend itself. Yeah, I mean, I was talking to Luke Phillips, who's also on the call today from our office about the question of, can we rely on someone else's Lambda, for example? If we're going to build a model for a client, what would they think of that, you know, all those kinds of questions, and our conversation was, well, if they've been tested, you know, like Craig's has been tested, if it's certified, these kinds of things, then, yeah, you know, by all means we can use those in our models. So, that was where we came to on that as well.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    How do you think, and I'll ask Danielle this, if someone's using all Dynamic Arrays for a model, do you think it's easier to audit? You think it would be more challenging? What's your thought because, obviously many of the models we build have to be audited, there's you know millions if not more in dollars of decisions being made based off these models So, what's kind of your thought if someone uses full Dynamic Arrays from an auditing perspective? Do you have any thoughts on that?

    Guest: Danielle Stein Fairhurst

    Yeah, yeah, and it'll be so much easier to audit because you know that the formula is going to be exactly the same. I really like Jeff's point about the thought that needs to go into building the model, and that makes it a better model because you have to think a little bit more carefully about the structure of the model. So you can't just have, “Oh, this cell’s different, and this cell’s different”, and you know, have all these inconsistent formulas. So, it is going to make it a better structured model in the long run, which is going to be easier to audit.

    Guest & Co-host: Ian Schnoor

    I would agree with all that, and I would say that it would make it easier from a technical standpoint in some ways, because yes, as we talked about, you cannot change, if you like, year one, nobody can change anything in year five, ten, twenty, whatever.

    However, I just want to remind people that auditing is not simply a technical skill, it's not simply about checking accuracy of the formula of the actual formulas within the different columns. You can have all sorts of logical errors. You can have a balanced balance sheet at the model that's all wrong. You can have erroneous assumptions, you can calculate things incorrectly, you can use, you know, a cost that's a fixed cost when it should be a variable cost or a semi variable cost. Like, auditing is much more than just knowing that the actual formulas are correct across. So, I think, again, a good modeler is thinking about, you can have inconsistency in the level of detail you're building in, so there's lots of other reasons and ways that, you know, we need to still be looking carefully at models, even if one is buit with Dynamic Arrays.

    Guest: Craig Hatmaker

    But all those things exist without Dynamic Arrays, correct?

    Guest & Co-host: Ian Schnoor

    Oh, yeah, no, I'm saying that that needs to be checked and, you know, carefully looked at and Dynamic Arrays help to avoid errors within years, I get that, that's a nice addition, but it doesn't mean we can avoid auditing.

    Guest: Craig Hatmaker

    You definitely need to continue, if a model has got any kind of significance, it definitely needs to be audited. I think the point that Danielle made though is, the only thing that Dynamic Arrays would impact in model auditing is that you'd only need to check the first column.

    Guest & Co-host: Ian Schnoor

    Correct.

    Guest: Craig Hatmaker

    So it does reduce the effort.

    Guest & Co-host: Ian Schnoor

    A hundred percent. A hundred percent, yeah.

    Guest: Jeff Robson

    The other frustrating thing sometimes when writing the Dynamic Arrays is that not all formulas spill and not all functions spill, which, when I was first looking into this, half the time I was like, oh my God, this is amazing, and then half the time I was like, ah, this is so frustrating. So it was a mixture of those two.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    I agree with you, Jeff. I remember, I think it was one of the first webinars you did on Dynamic Arrays and you were like, I'm trying to figure out how to get this one, I couldn't get it to work, and here's how I did it, and I remember trying to copy some of what you did. This was a few years ago and doing some of my own, and I started trying doing a few models and I’ve had areas where I'm like, forget it, I'm just going to practice on my own and I'm just going normal, I'll figure it out later, cause it can be tough, it takes some work to get there.

    But I like what David Thompson added and we see Lance Rubin as well, right? “Much, much easier to audit the model. Only one formula per block”. So I think we're all in agreement, it's easier to model the logic, right? To check if the formulas are right, all those types of things, but it doesn't change all the other stuff still needs to be modeled, you still got to have a good model, whether you use Dynamic Arrays, don't use Dynamic Arrays, Lambdas, do it in Google Sheets, do it in some other platform, you still got to audit it and make sure you've used good logic and that the numbers are supportable and it can support the business decision that's being made. None of this changes that. All this does is, you know, allow you different ways to build your model at the end of the day.

    Guest & Co-host: Ian Schnoor

    Jeff, do you have any of your favorite functions that are not spillable? Do you have that secret list now of some tools that you wish were spillable, but that don't work?

    Guest: Jeff Robson

    Where do I start? Yes, one of the most painful ones that doesn't spill would be things like AND and OR.

    Like the fact they've got to use brackets and times by this and plus that, like that's just annoying, right? Why do you just like AND spill OR all spill? Anyway, I'll leave it at that.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    That could be frustrating. And I'm just going to ask you kind of for fun here, get everybody's thoughts, if they have a favorite right now, spillable function. So, maybe one of the few Dynamic Arrays or a favorite that they really like to use that they've found they enjoy.

    So Craig, we'll ask you if there's one that you really like that you're using a lot.

    Guest: Craig Hatmaker

    SEQUENCE! It's foundational.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, I love SEQUENCE. The other day I wrote something and I put rows in, and as soon as I got it done and it worked, I was like, why didn't I just use SEQUENCE here? Because I just kind of have it like, you know, you forget sometimes, and I was like, wait, SEQUENCE would have been perfect for this.

    Jeff, how about you?

    Guest: Jeff Robson

    I'll go with LET as a two edged sword.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    And why is it a two edged sword?

    Guest: Jeff Robson

    One, because it's great, you can build more complex functions and more complex logic into your formulas. And two, because it allows you to build more complex stuff into your formulas.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Yeah, that's about right. I've seen some very complex LETs where it's, you know, you think it was hard to model some before, to be able to audit, troubleshoot somebody's formula, get a really complex LET with a bunch of different Dynamic Arrays, and you'll be there a while troubleshooting it. You gotta be careful. It's great, and it can shorten formulas, but can also make it harder to understand them at times.

    Danielle, is there one that you have?

    Guest: Danielle Stein Fairhurst

    Yeah, I'm going to agree with Lance here and say UNIQUE, I mean, obviously all the others everyone's mentioned, but love the UNIQUE. Someone has asked a question about pivot tables, I mean, pivot tables are really only for data analysis and if you're building a fully dynamic financial model, it's not really necessary to include a pivot table because UNIQUE will often sort of do what you would use a pivot table for previously, like a UNIQUE and a SUM or something like that.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    You know, funny enough, I would probably go with UNIQUE. That's probably the one I've used the most as well. I mean, there's a few I really like, but that is toward the top of my list for sure, and I love to see people's reaction, when you train somebody, and they're like, “Wait, you can do that? You mean, I don't have to copy this list over here, go up there and remove duplicates?” So it's a big one.

    Ian, do you have one that you like?

    Guest & Co-host: Ian Schnoor

    Yeah, I mean I love what Jacob mentioned, all the SORT, FILTER, UNIQUE , those are amazingly powerful on the data management side. On the modeling side though, I have to agree with Craig. I mean, knowing how to get SEQUENCE going is game changing. It changes everything. Because once you drive your headers in your columns with SEQUENCE in the forecast model, everything else flows off that. So, it is unbelievable to watch an entire model grow and shrink because the SEQUENCE function is is automatically changing based on one input.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Yeah, thank you, and I just want to share here, David Thompson put out a comment and just so people know recently we had him on a podcast episode that will come out here in the next month about the history of modeling with a couple other people we talked about, you know, just over the years, how things have changed. So, stay tuned for that, it's a fascinating episode. But I like what he said, he had spoke with Jeff a while back, and then applied Dynamic Arrays to his master model and he said it's a game changer, but he does point out, as Jeff said, it's so much harder initially to make it work in large models due to the complexity and lack of some of the basic things we would normally use.

    So, I think the general message, whether, Dynamic Arrays, Lambdas, getting used to any use of this is going to take some time, but there are some really neat things you can do.

    That leads me to a question I would like to kind of ask each of you. Do you think the day will come when the standard is to build models using Dynamic Arrays and Lambda? Do you think that's where we're heading or what's your thought?

    Why don't we start with you, Danielle, on that question?

    Guest: Danielle Stein Fairhurst

    Yeah, great question. And it is incredible how long it takes for these things to become mainstream. I mean, how long has Power Query been up? And yet I go to a class and ask, you know, how many people have used Power Query? Often, not many of them.

    Guest & Co-host: Ian Schnoor:

    They've never heard of it, yeah.

    Guest: Danielle Stein Fairhurst

    Yeah! It takes a really long time. And yeah, yeah, I think we will get there and what you were saying earlier about UNIQUE versus REMOVE DUPLICATES, like I've had people go, wow, it removed  duplicates amazing, and they've only just discovered that, even better than that, so, they keep adding all of these new features and it does take a really long time for it to become standard and mainstream in the financial models.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Yeah, I agree, it definitely could take a long time.

    Craig, what's your thoughts? Where do you think we're heading?

    Guest: Craig Hatmaker

    Oh, yeah, it's going to be a Dynamic raise and I'm going to sound like a broken record, 5Gs. The reason why I say that is because people who adopt that technique are going to create dynamic models, not static models, they're going to do it faster, it's going to be more robust because as Daniel pointed out, you only have to check one column. They can't be inconsistent.

    If you're going to be competitive as a financial modeler, people are going to want you to create Dynamic models, they want you to do it faster, they want you to do it more robust. That's the only way to do it. Dynamic Arrays with 5G is the way to go.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Thank you, Craig. And question for you, if people, I know you've done some videos I think there's some stuff out there where you've shown some examples. So if someone wants to see you building with 5G, is there anything on YouTube or a way they can see that?

    Guest: Craig Hatmaker

    So Beyond Excel is our website or BXL on YouTube. If you put my name in there, Craig Hatmaker, those will come up. One of the things that a video that I have planned that has not yet been done is showing how I converted a full stack modelers fast model using Dynamic Arrays and 5G. So, the idea is, here's how we could do it step by step, taking someone else's model or fast model and how do we convert it to Dynamic Arrays, and it addresses all the problems that have been discussed something like how do you do SUM of columns? When you try to use a SUM in a spilled array, it sums everything, not just the column. So we show how to resolve that and how to resolve it without having to learn Lambdas. So that's the point, how to do it easily, how to convert these models quickly and easily.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Thank you. And I'm gonna put this question up here and give this one to you, Jeff, because it comes from Wynn here. He says, and I want to hear just your thought on this “Likely AI will take over before we all get to building full models in DA”. Basically AI will be building the models. What's your thought? What's coming first?

    Guest: Jeff Robson

    Well, we have Dynamic Arrays now and I think the AI still has a little way to go before we're all out of jobs, so, still got a way to go there.

    Yeah, I mean, there are many frustrating things about Dynamic Arrays still, like, you know, you can't do an array of arrays, for example, and that always frustrates me, for example, you know, trying to get a SUM IFs, for example, to spill across and down those kinds of things. Yes, you can make it do that if you do some Lambdas, things like that should be in there. The formatting should spill with it as well.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

     Thank you. Yes. I'd love the formatting to spill.

    Guest: Jeff Robson

    That annoys me every time, like, why doesn't the formatting spill? Why do I have to copy my form? Anyway, AI is doing some amazing things and we've done some demos of that at different conferences and webinars and so on as well. But you can build quite complex models, probably more so on the data modeling side and without necessarily even needing to write Excel formulas or Python code or anything else for that matter, or even do Power Query, you can do a lot of stuff just using AI and just using natural language. So, I don't know, I'm still not sure where we’re getting. I think it's going to be a long time till we actually see and do all the things we could do in a financial model and get it to do what we want it to do reliably in just AI.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Thanks. I appreciate that. And we'll kind of end this part here with Dave's comment: “I'll be drinking mojitos on the beach in the Great Barrier Reef, before it does though”. So, yeah, there you go, we know what David will be doing. I'll give one last thought.

    Ian, any thoughts on this kind of discussion around, you know, all this?

    Guest & Co-host: Ian Schnoor

    I mean listen, I love the conversation, I love the chatter on the side as well of people are engaged, and I really just want to emphasize, I love all the new technology that's coming out, I think it's fantastic, the people in this table around this room are on the cutting edge of learning and helping to teach a lot of people know in the world, people in this webinar tonight or this morning, wherever you are, are wanting to get there, or maybe you're already there, some of you, which is great, but I would say, keep in mind that, a lot of the modelers forecast people who build forecasts in the world are not there and they don't want to get there necessarily.

    So I think your specific question was, will this become the required standard? Will you have to know how to use Dynamic Arrays to build models? I'm going to take more of a Luddite answer and say, I don't think it's going to become the requirement. As Danielle said, these things take a long time to change, and we all know that there are a lot of senior people that want to understand something, but don't want to have to crawl through new technology. I've met lots of senior people in my days that just want to see simple additions and subtractions because they want to understand every single cell and you can't fault that if that's what they want. And so I think we've got a long time before everything out there is going to be using some of this technology and that's okay. Excel is just a giant piece of paper, and if you want to use, you know, simple rows and add things up and subtract them to get where you need to go, that shouldn't be frowned upon either.

    So, I don't think it'll be the standard for a long, long time, but I love that it's happening and I love that we're getting capacity and capability to do things that we could never do before.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    I think, you know, kind of sum this up as a general rule, I think the overall view is, we're not there, if we do get there, it's going to be a while. Some think it may be a little quicker than others, some think AI may get there first, but like anything in Excel, we've all seen adoption doesn't move fast. There's still lots of people that have no idea that Excel spills, lots of people don't know about Power Query or, you know, Power Pivot and that's okay. Some people don't need to know that for the job. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it just shows that the adoption takes a long time. So I think that's the important thing to keep in mind with all this, it's important to learn about as Danielle pointed out. I think it is good to understand what's coming to be on the cutting edge, but also realize that, it doesn't mean everything's changing tomorrow. You don't got to panic as some people said on here, “Should I be worried? Oh, no, there's all this stuff to learn”. You can take a deep breath, you can slowly learn it, you'll bring it in and find ways to be better at what you're doing.

    What I'd like to do, and we'll start with Dynamic Arrays, just would like to get each of your advice, if you know, the audience wants to get more familiar with them and better what advice would you offer them?

    And we'll start with you on this, Jeff, any advice you'd offer.

    Guest: Jeff Robson

    There are a few people on this call that have some really great training resources, so everyone's in great training courses, but in addition to that, you know, there's a few people on this call, some really great YouTube resources as well, so you know, you can learn a lot for free on the internet as well. So many resources out there you start googling, you know, how do I get started with Dynamic Arrays, for example, you'll find tons of YouTube videos you can get started in that.

    For me, it was just like I learned the basics and then start experimenting.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    I love that, learn the basics then start experimenting. There's lots of resources out there.

    Danielle, what's your thoughts?

    Guest: Danielle Stein Fairhurst

    Yeah, I think just jump in there and start doing it, you know. As the next time you're building the formula in Excel, just say, hey, maybe kind of make this Dynamic. Does it need to be a static formula? You know, just use every opportunity that you get to try out new features. And as Jeff said, there's lots of resources, you know, subscribe to some of the MVPs that have YouTube channels, and are always kind of brringing up tutorials on how to do these things as as they come out. So, stay up to date that way.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Great! Craig, your thoughts.

    Guest: Craig Hatmaker

    I love Mike Girvin's Excel is Fun channel. He has tons of information out there about Dynamic Arrays, and it's very easy to understand, I think he does a great job. So do some of the other YouTube influencers, but he's probably the one that I would suggest going to first because of the number of videos he has out there and the practical applications he shows.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    And something one of our audience mentioned here, you know, “Meetups is a great way to learn". We have that from Lance Rubin. All I add, you know, Mike Girvin is great, he has a great book, it's like 800 pages long, I have it back here I won't pull it out, but it's about this thick, around 365 that goes into Dynamic Arrays. Another really good one, and you know, we will be able to see this on the podcast, but there's a book called Up, Up and Array. It's the only one I've seen completely dedicated to arrays, full book, by Abbott Katz. So there's lots of resources. It's a matter of just taking the time and diving in, and Mike is great. Mike wrote the book where I started to learn Arrays, before Dynamic Arrays, Control Shift Enter, and I went through that book and I learned a ton. We've come a long way. If anyone who has used Excel for a long time, definitely remembers Control Shift Enter, and some are probably still using it if they're not on 365.

    So next question, I'm going to kind of do the same question. We'll start with you, Craig, on this one. If our audience wants to become more familiar with Lambdas, what advice would you offer?

    Guest: Craig Hatmaker

    Well, Mike Irvin Lela has some excellent content on YouTube. That's probably the best place to start. I think the YouTube channels do a good job of explaining it, again, I have to say I really like Mike Irvin's approach on that one as well.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    I think Mike Gervin is fabulous. You know, Danielle's mentioned Leela, Mindy, Shandu are some great ones. So really, it feels like there's kind of consensus. we'll ask a little bit more here, but we're definitely hearing there's a lot of people out there you can follow. It's just making that commitment to try to figure it out.

    Jeff, any thoughts there on Lambda that you would add?

    Guest: Jeff Robson

    I think that's pretty much been covered. I can't think of any other ones that I would highly recommend. We have a YouTube channel and we talk about those kinds of things from time to time as well.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Great, and we'll make sure we put your YouTube channel, send it to me, we’ll put it in the show notes and you can all send me some of these resources and we'll make sure we put them in there so people have them.

    Ian or Danielle, anything you'd add on Lambdas?

    Guest & Co-host: Ian Schnoor

    I wouldn't add on Lambdas, but more  generically bigger picture, I would say that, you know, I think everyone on this call would agree that in any profession that anyone's in, I think we would all agree that the best people in any discipline in any profession try to stay current and stay relevant.

    And so even if you don't want to ever build models today with Lambdas or VBA or Dynamic Arrays, whatever you can add to that list, I still believe that it's important to be aware of them and understand them, because what I can promise is one day you will receive an Excel spreadsheet that someone else built that has these things in it. You will get a spreadsheet that's got a Dynamic Array in it, you will receive a spreadsheet with a bit of VBA, and even if you wouldn't have done it that way yourself, you don't want to feel like you're out of your depth. You want to be able to say, I get, I understand what you're doing. Maybe I don't quite understand that Lambda or that Dynamic Array, but I'm familiar with it. I'm aware of it and I can go figure it out.

    And it's really important because we're going to see that more and more in people's tools and so, there's so many reasons it's unbelievable compared to when I started my career, or most people, there's so many resources that are free and available, they're amazing. Yeah, slowly start to learn about this even if you're not expert at it, become familiar with what's out there.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Great. Thank you, Ian! And we'll kind of do a wrap up here, just give each of you an opportunity to say any last thoughts on this subject or any advice you'd like to offer the audience and Daniella we'll start with you.

    Guest: Danielle Stein Fairhurst

    Yeah, probably more just what I've already said, which is just get in there and start doing it. I mean, you can learn by listening to podcasts, you can watch YouTube, but there's nothing like just jumping into Excel, getting your hands dirty and actually doing it.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Totally agree, right? You can watch as many videos as you want, but at some point you have to practice.

    Craig!

     

    Guest: Craig Hatmaker

    So when I was working I was in charge of putting Microsoft 365 on everybody's desktop, but at home, I decided to invest in the Beta channel so that I could experiment with all these things. Now, there's no better teacher than experience. If you can afford it, put Beta channel or Preview channel, Insiders Edition on your home computer and play with it there, go to some of these YouTube channels, try what they have to say, what they show there. I think that's the best teacher's experience, so play with it. Only learn what it is that's helpful, but never be afraid to learn what's helpful.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Thank you, Craig. I think that's a good advice.

     Jeff.

    Guest: Jeff Robson

    Yeah, I think you know, what the others have said is all quite relevant. And in addition to that, I'd just say you know, we also in terms of our own office, you know, we gather together and we learn from each other and it's not until you actually get out in the field and start trying to apply it to a practical problem in real life that you actually start to go, okay, well, you find the limitations.

    You also are forced to kind of learn the new things that, how do I do this? How do I solve this particular problem? Okay. I've got to find something or talk to someone, you know, all of those kinds of things happen in the real world when you start to actually try and apply it to a natural problem. So, I think real life is the best kind of teacher and trying to apply it to real life is greater than the most.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Couldn't agree more. And I think that's a kind of great place to end the discussion, there's no better way than to practice in real life with your real data, with real examples and learn and push through those challenges, and sometimes watch a video again on YouTube or talk to an expert. So great advice.

    Before we wrap up, just want to say thank you to everybody for joining us! You know, we try to cover as many of your questions as you can. We really appreciate them coming in.

    Also want to especially thank our guests, each of them for joining us, Ian Daniella, Craig, Jeff, and just give them one last chance, if anyone from our audience maybe wants to get ahold of you or follow some of the work you do, what's the best way for them to follow you?

    And we'll start with Jeff.

    Guest: Jeff Robson

    Easiest way for me is probably on LinkedIn. Yeah, I'm pretty easy to find. Jeff Robson or Access Analytic, either one of those, if you want to find Wynn from our office, he's our main person that does our YouTube channel, a couple of really great resources there.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Craig?

    Guest: Craig Hatmaker

    I agree. Connect with me on LinkedIn is the best way.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Danielle?

    Guest: Danielle Stein Fairhurst

    Yeah, LinkedIn, of course. And I just want to mention, I do really enjoy Jeff and Wynn's YouTube channel. It's great!

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    Yeah, I've watched some videos as well, I agree with you, they have some really good stuff out there.

     And Ian, how about you?

     

    Guest & Co-host: Ian Schnoor

    Jeff,  now, I know why Wynn was asking you all the hardest questions! Same thing, LinkedIn is great or at Financial Modeling Institute's website, which is fminstitute.com. It's easy to find me.

    Host: Paul Barnhurst

    And just, you know, as a reminder, Financial Modeler’s Corner is sponsored by FMI, and if you go to the FMI website, you use the code PODCAST, you can get 15% off on their accreditations, their fundamentals training.

    So if one of you are wanting to level up your financial modeling skills, it's a great program, great accreditation, and again, thank you to all our guests and thank you for joining us wherever you are, evening or morning, whatever time it may be for you.

    Thanks for joining us!

    Financial Modeler's Corner was brought to you by Financial Modeling Institute. Visit FMI at www.fminstitute.com/podcast and use code PODCAST to save 15% when you enroll in one of their accreditations today.

Paul Barnhurst
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