Episode 9 - Financial Modeling Through the Years: Stories & Insights from Colin Human, David Thompson, and Prem Beejan
Show Notes
Welcome to Financial Modeler's Corner (FMC) where we discuss the art and science of financial modeling with your host Paul Barnhurst. Financial Modeler's Corner is sponsored by Financial Modeling Institute (FMI) the most respected accreditations in Financial Modeling globally.
In this episode, Paul Barnhurst is joined by three distinguished modeling experts: Colin Human, David Thompson, and Prem Beejan.
Colin Human started out his financial career as a 22-year-old chartered accountant in South Africa. Today, he is the CEO of Goalfix and provides financial modeling consulting and training.
David Thompson is an independent financial consultant who provides expert financial modeling, financial planning & analysis, independent valuations, strategy, and corporate development services to both the public and private sectors.
Prem Beejan is the Chairman at Maubank Holdings LTD and the Co-founder of the Financial Modeling Centre in Mauritius. FMI recently awarded Prem the Master Financial Modeler, and he is one of only 6 people globally to be awarded the designation.
Listen to this episode as they share about:
How they got started in financial modeling
Their experience and learning from the worst models that they came across
Financial modeling over the years and how it has changed.
The various Modeling tools used by them
The impact of Generative AI on Models
The importance of Formal Accreditation
Their position on controversial modeling issues, including circular references, dynamic arrays, modeling standards, and more
Sign up for the Advanced Financial Modeler Accreditation or FMI Fundamentals Today and receive 15% off by using the special show code ‘Podcast’.
Visit www.fminstitute.com/podcast and use code Podcast to save 15% when you register.
Go to https://earmarkcpe.com, download the app, take the quiz and you can receive CPE credit.
Quotes:
“Strategic thinking is really crucial for financial modelers as it allows them to create dynamic, adaptable, insightful models that can support a company's strategy and decision-making.” - David
“Unquantified strategy is just wishful thinking. It's as simple as that.” - Colin
“I am not saying that we cannot build models in other tools, there could be other tools to build financial models, but the best, the easiest, the most accepted, the way it's made, the presentation, the reporting, and everything, it's all Excel.” - Prem
Follow Colin Human:
Website - https://goalfixglobal.com/staff/colin-human/
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/colin-human-b8072812/
Follow Prem Beejan:
Website - https://www.fmcmauritius.com/
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/prem-beejan-msc-mfm-5a921025/
Follow David Thompson:
Website - https://tghcorp.com.au/
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/strategy-finance-valuations-modelling/
Follow Paul:
Website - https://www.thefpandaguy.com/
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguy/
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In today’s episode:
(00:22) Intro;
(00:55) Welcoming the Guests - Colin, Prem and David;
(01:33) The worst financial model David has ever seen;
(02:31) The worst financial model Colin has ever seen;
(04:16) The worst financial model Prem has ever seen;
(05:44) David’s key learning experience from the worst financial model;
(06:23) Colin’s key learning experience from the worst financial model;
(07:16) Prem’s key learning experience from the worst financial model;
(08:00) David’s background;
(09:01) Colin’s background;
(10:51) Prem’s background;
(13:48) First Model Colin built;
(17:10) First Model David built;
(19:27) First Model Prem built;
(21:55) First Model Paul built;
(22:39) Changes seen over the years in Modeling;
(24:52) Tools used in Modeling;
(28:19 - 29:05) Validate your Financial Modeling Skills with FMI’s Accreditation Program (ad);
(29:06) What kept David interested in Modeling;
(31:08) Prem’s take on the impact of Generative AI on Models;
(32:24) Colin’s take on the impact of Generative AI on Models;
(34:48) David’s take on the impact of Generative AI on Models;
(36:20) Important skills to be a great Financial Modeler - David;
(37:29) Important skills to be a great Financial Modeler - Colin;
(38:53) Important skills to be a great Financial Modeler - Prem;
(40:37) The need for Formal Accreditation’s;
(43:19) Why Prem decided to earn the designation of Master Financial Modeler;
(46:51) The importance of Strategic Thinking;
(49:41) Rapid Fire;
(56:42) Nugget on Financial Modeling from the renowned Guests;
(58:51) Connect with David, Prem and Colin;
Transcript
FMC_S1E9_History of Financial Modeling_Transcription
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Welcome to Financial Modeler's Corner, where we discuss the art and science of financial modeling with your host, Paul Barnhurst. Financial Modeler's Corner is sponsored by Financial Modeling Institute.
Welcome to Financial Modeler's Corner. I am your host, Paul Barnhurst. Financial Modeler's Corner is a podcast where we talk all about the art and science of financial modeling with distinguished financial modelers from around the globe. The Financial Modeler's Corner podcast is brought to you by Financial Modeling Institute.
FMI offers the most respected accreditations in financial modeling. In today's episode, we're going to be talking about financial modeling over the years and how it has changed. With me for this episode, I have three really exciting guests. I have David Thompson, Colin Human, and Prem Beejan.
So we'll go ahead and go in order here. Welcome to the show, Colin!
Guest: Colin Human
Thank you very much, Paul. Welcome! Thanks, Dave, Prem, nice to be here.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
We'll go ahead and welcome Prem to the show. Thanks for joining us.
Guest: Prem Beejan
Thanks, Paul. And welcome, Colleen and David.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
And David, welcome to the show.
Guest: David Thompson
Thank you, Paul, and gentlemen, lovely to meet you.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
All right. So we're really excited here to have three distinguished guests. And what we're going to do is we're going to start, this is a question we like to start out every episode with kind of have a little fun, but also to make a point. So here we're going to start with David. Tell me about the worst financial model you ever saw.
Guest: David Thompson
The first one I ever built at University. It was a 60-plus megabyte monster that had monthly, followed by quarterly, followed by annual calculations, and the information for each and across time it was a 30-year model, and each of the months had multiple columns of quantities, prices, or cost calculating into resulting value. So you can imagine, across time, every column had an individual unique formula and it was different and it had to be copied across, obviously, so, that was an amazingly, poorly structured model. So we got that model down from 60 plus megabytes to about eight megabytes in size and only one formula across all columns and split out over a number of worksheets, so that was the worst one.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
I could see that in 30 years, that would be pretty bad with unique formulas in each of those. That'd be a monster for sure.
Colin, how about you?
Guest: Colin Human
Oh, undoubtedly, Paul, we have a major mining client in South Africa, and they have their own corporate finance team, quite a switched-on organization, and got a call from them one day to say, we need some help and went and paid a visit. They then did a bit of show and tell and showed us this model, which was used by the way, by the main board of the holding company to make really, really serious business decisions, billions of brands, of investments, and so on.
And the chap who headed the corporate finance team said to me, you know, we're a bit concerned that this model has got errors in it. I think that was probably, the major understatement of the year. When we got it, it was 24-something megabytes, it had 92 different sheets in it, and, it was an absolute nightmare. And if you talk, Paul, if we just mention modeling standards, you know, whether it's a fast or whichever one we prefer and kind of thing, that had never occurred to anybody. And what had actually happened is that the model had been built by a particular employee, at the outset, who then moved on and the model was given to someone else who couldn't understand it, there was no user guide, no nothing, so he just did his own thing on top of what already existed. And that happened again the third time. So it was an unmitigated disaster. And to say that it was wrong is mildly stated.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Thank you. I could see that one, when you have multiple people just build on top of each other, that gets messy in a hurry, so I could imagine there were some real mistakes with that one.
So, how about yourself, Prem? What's the worst one you've seen?
Guest: Prem Beejan
I would probably go last two years. I had somebody who wanted to make a model. So he said, okay, this is a single-product business, Stone Crusher, and this is the model we have built. And one of his guys has built that and he sent it to me.
I don't know, when I saw the model, it's a one page with colors and everything, it's like a design being made there. And when I looked at the structure, there was no structure behind it, the input was everywhere, the formulas had hard-coded values, and it was simply an addition of, you know, revenue, less expenses, few items of expenses, and then the profit line, and it was a bit, I was a bit embarrassed to tell the promoter, you know, this is very bad. I had to tell him, in a very sort of polite way, you know, these are old ways of doing models. We have new ways of doing models, so please let's meet. We explained to him, that the model has to be made up of a complete structure with the inputs, the calculations, the spec sheet, and then the reporting, and all that has to be done in a proper way.
So we met and we discussed about his project and we prepared a very nice model for him.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Thank you. I appreciate each of you, sharing those stories, and sounds like there were some clear, similarities between each of those, which tends to be the case. So we'll ask real quick, you know, was there maybe a key learning experience from these models? Something you took away that kind of helped you as you moved forward and did your own models?
We'll start with David. Any kind of key takeaways from that experience?
Guest: David Thompson
Well, particularly Paul for that one, I think one of the things I've always tried to do, and this applied perfectly is help people understand the best way to structure a model. Not everyone needs an expert, and not everyone's had our experience, so you need to be nice about that and help them understand how to improve what they're doing, not, you know, tear them down in any shape or form.
Host: Paul Barnhurs
I really agree with you about being nice and helping people understand what good structure is.
Colin, any takeaways for you?
Guest: Colin Human
Yes, I totally agree with David. You know, our experience is that, sadly, many aspiring modelers in South Africa seem to be in a terrible hurry to learn the art of modeling, and, as a result, the principles and the practices that they use in their different work environments are really, really, default, you know, defunct, not good, not good at all.
So we take a lot of care and time in our courses to build on the basics, of good model structure of flow and key issues in modeling. So we try and educate them and convey to them that modeling is a serious undertaking and needs to be approached carefully and not in a sort of Gung Ho fashion.
Host: Paul Barnhurs
Got it, thank you. How about you, Prem? Any kind of key takeaways from that experience?
Guest: Prem Beejan
The experience, it taught me that, you know, my feeling that there was a skill gap in modeling in all office it was sort of certified and that gave me the sort of push to, go for the training specialized in financial modeling.
So we were in the process of setting up a financial modeling center in Mauritius, exclusively dedicated to financial modeling, and to train professionals, working professionals. And this is what I think, was the good part of it.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Yeah, no, sounds like some good came out of it and it helped validate something you saw as a concern.
Next here, appreciate that, just want to take a minute and give each of you an opportunity to just give a little bit about your background for our audience. So, you know, kind of how you got into modeling and a little bit of what you've done over the years, so on this one, we'll go ahead and start with David, if you could give us just a little bit about your background.
Guest: David Thompson
I have been a senior executive, I led strategy, mergers and acquisition, finance, departments, valuations, and financial modeling across multiple sectors, including for very large national infrastructure businesses, a global steel company, and a global investment manager.
I've valued hundreds of companies and businesses and projects, developed financial models, and I was a financial advisor on reforms going through the energy, water, and port industries, and led a number of teams on projects, probably 150- 200 billion worth projects, and now I provide independent valuation services, strategy consulting, financial analysis, and financial modeling, across most sectors in the economy.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Colin, could you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background?
Guest: Colin Human
I started out my sort of financial career as a 22-year-old chartered accountant in South Africa. So I was a young man in a terrible hurry, and, after qualifying, I joined a small company in my hometown of Durban as their first-ever financial manager, and 23 years later, I owned the company. During those 23 years, we expanded the company into a national group. We had something like 800 employees and factories of different centers, and in 1978, the manager of the bank, Conrad Strauss said to me, on one occasion, he said, you know, Colin, we love you and we like your business and we see you're profitable and we see that you’re cash generative, but you know, you can't keep coming back like Oliver Twist every few months with your handout saying, please, sir, can I have some more? He said, you need to do some longer term financial planning.
And Paul, I didn't know, and he didn't realize that with those few words, Conrad Strauss changed my life, because I then approached a lifelong friend of mine called David Turon. David had gone into financial modeling in 1973, opened a company called Decision Information, and I talked Dave into joining my group, which now I'd expanded to five different companies, as the group CFO, and we built our first-ever financial model. That's actually a misnomer. Dave built the model and I provided all the detailed information, the business case applicable to the five different businesses.
So that's the way I got into modeling.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Thank you, I appreciate you sharing that. Prem, could you tell us a little bit about your background?
Guest: Prem Beejan
I started as an investment professional in a company known as the State Investment Governmental Venture, where they were primarily involved in private equity investment in the private sector.
So that was my first job, as a professional, and, it was way back in 1986, and I was introduced to the spreadsheet in 1987 when the company decided to buy a desktop. At that time, it was very expensive, and then the software to do, forecasts and projections for, especially we were more concerned with, the cash generation out of the investment over the period of say 5 to 10 years.
And, Symfony was the spreadsheet that was preferred over Excel, at that time, Excel was not that popular. It was Lotus one, two, three, Symfony and Excel. And then Quattro Pro came in, probably, Colin knows about it.
Guest: Colin Human
I do!
Guest: Prem Beejan
When I started there, I grew up with it until 1994, when Excel came with a new version, 93 I believe, that came to Mauritius in 94 and I had a look at it. The moment I looked at it, it was a sort of love at first sight. The color, the grids, that movement of the carousel and everything, and the new features there, so I switched to Excel, and from then till today I stayed there.
Now about my career, I moved on with the same company in 1997. There was a government decision to set up a mutual fund for the public and we have to raise money from the public. So, 6,500 people, small investors subscribed to that fund. My challenge then was to give them a daily pricing every day, and this is where Excel came in as a major tool for me. I used Excel, I used my modeling techniques, and I was able to do daily valuation of the fund in 1997, and also, I started building different models to do portfolio management, investment management, stock management, you know.
I retired from the main job in 2008, and then I started being part-time director at board level, and today, I'm the chairman of Maubank Holdings. It's a government venture, it's a bank with about 1 billion dollar of asset and rates and I'm the chairman of that bank.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Thank you. I appreciate the background and each of you sharing a little bit about yourselves in getting your start.
And so what I thought would be fun here is, you know, next question that I'm going to ask, and I think, on this one, we'll start with Colin, we'll go to Pram, and we'll finish with Dave, what I want to ask is about the first model you ever built, and you hinted a little bit about that, Colin. I know you wrote an article, I think it was with Lance Rubin, he did a series of articles where you talked about that, and you mentioned a little bit here, your first model dates back to 1978. And if I remember right, there was a programming language called Prosper to write that. So could you maybe talk a little bit about that experience, what that first model all entailed?
Guest: Colin Human
Yes, Paul, thank you, and your memory is absolutely excellent. It was 1978, and, as I said, my dear lifelong friend, we're still pals, he’s now 83, was the chap who introduced me to financial modeling.
As Prem mentioned, Excel didn't exist in those days at all, Excel only came to South Africa in 1985, so we were all running on VisiCalc, Quattro Pro and by the time I got involved, I think we were running on Lotus 1, 2, 3. And, Dave, like a magician, would ask me searching questions, and I would give him extensive answers, hopefully accurate, and we then produced this entire model, if you can believe it, Paul, on punch cards. You know, most people don't even know what a punch card is today, but we had this special machine, and he was typing away and punching holes in these cards. They all, of course, had to be kept in a perfect sequence in a big tray, and we would go in the evening into the center of Johannesburg to one of the major banks. You can imagine what those computer rooms looked like in the days of old mainframes and all the rest of it, because we could rent time on their mainframe at a significantly reduced cost after midnight.
So we spent many, many hours, in the computer room of this major bank running this model and running this model and had massive, great big printouts, you know, very, very bulky stuff. Amazingly, at the end of it, we then were called to do a presentation to the investment committee of this bank with whom we had applied for additional finance because I was growing the group both in terms of geography and in terms of product range quite aggressively in those days, and we presented this model. And in total honesty, they just didn't believe us. They said to us, “It's not possible, nobody can do what you've done or what you’re claiming to be able to do”. You know, ” How do you know this is right?”
And I have to smile today when they talk about three-statement modeling. We were building three statement models in 1978, true story because we were charted accountants so we knew the importance of a balance sheet. Anyhow, that was how I got, got into my very first exposure, of financial modeling. Not really as the builder, but as the support staff.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
They're both very important and I appreciate you sharing that. I imagine there are not many modelers that can say they built a model using punch cards and mainframes. I know for sure I can't! I do remember those and you know in 1978 I was still in diapers, but I do remember that year vaguely. I appreciate you sharing that. That's a great story.
David, how about you? What was kind of, your first model, what software did you use?
Guest: David Thompson
So my first model, I think, was actually dBase 3 at University, first one we built as part of the learning program. But we grew up on Symfony to Quattro Pro to Excel, like a few folks did, but the first big model we built was Quattro Pro and it was for a major customer that we had in the energy industry, who had a very complex contract.
I remember the old financial accountant we had, used to do it by hand, and it was a 20-year contract, done over 20 sheets and they were 12-column analysis sheets by hand, and he made a mistake once when we presented it to the board, right on the very first page and it went right through the whole lot, so he had to come back and do it again.
And I said, that's it, that's enough, I'm automating this onto spreadsheets and end up saving us obviously so much time in the future. But, that was my first real model in the commercial world.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
I can't even imagine, you know, on paper doing it. I mean, I know it was done, but just the complexity, and like you said, seeing that one error on page one, it's like, no, we're not doing this.
It reminds me of a story, we've had a guy on another show I've done, Glenn Hopper. He's really big in AI, he's been a CFO and his story kind of similar to yours is, they had a procurement guy, they had a computer, but he was doing everything by hand. He was punching it all together and was refusing to use technology, and this was early nineties. It turned out they had missed over a million-dollar invoice and it was Q4, you know, this is like 20 % of their CapEx for the year, and he said, never again. It's like, we're using a computer, and that guy left shortly after because he just couldn't adjust.
But he's like, we can't have million-dollar misses because we're doing things by hand.
Guest: David Thompson
Paul, I've heard this story before, and this applied to us. Our first computer for the finance department in the energy industry was an old black and white 386 and the model we built for the industry, we used to have to turn it on, open the model, walk away, go and get lunch, come back and the model would be open and we could start using it.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
I believe it. You know, I've definitely in my career had a few models that people have given me where it's like, all right, I'm going to go to lunch and hope this calculates. And anytime I saw that, I'm like, there's probably an issue with this model if we got to wait 45 minutes for something to calculate, but that's a whole other story.
So, I'm not surprised there. I've seen a few like that.
Prem, how about yourself?
Guest: Prem Beejan
Yeah, mine started, as I explained in 1987, but they were not models, they were mostly tabular computations of figures, you know, but the real model I built was in 1990.
I was sitting on the board of a social housing company that was planning to put up houses for the low-income group. It's a government backbencher, so they were deciding to build houses, to sell it to a mortgage company, and then keep that activity going on. Being a finance person, I felt something would be wrong in the future because that company can not keep on building houses and selling and then surviving, because I thought the mortgage revenue was much higher and much more consistent over time to make a company survive.
So I asked the board the permission to build a model and they never heard about that. What is a model? I said, I will make a projection. So I used Symphony, I used my desktop with, at that time it was a 640 KB RAM. Just imagine 640 KB RAM with all the limitations. So, the strength of building the model was the formula, it was computing line by line, each of the financing and each of the mortgages that would be given on each house.
So line by line that was computed over 20 years, and then every line was cumulatively added to the next line, and the next line, until I got the final line. And, when I run the model, the macro itself was written on a sheet, you would remember in Symphony, we used to write the macro in a sheet and then run the macro.
So, I wrote the macro. Fortunately, I had a background in programming, I did programming in 1977 using punch cards, Colin. I did, I wrote programs using punch cards, so that was in Fortran and Cobalt. So, I used the techniques of programming, applied that to Symphony, and the model was running for 20 to 25 minutes before giving the final line, and I brought those results to the board and they all saw that, you know, they should go for mortgage financing, not selling out right. Because the mortgage financing would make the company viable in the long run out of the cash flow.
So that was the first model I built.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Thanks. Appreciate you sharing that and I'll tell my story just real quick here.
My first model was in high school. I was part of a business planning competition and built a model that definitely was not a three-statement by any means. Kind of P&L and that was about it, and I use that term probably loosely, but it was a Lotus Notes for me. So we used, I remember, Lotus Notes 1-2-3, we had it at home and at school.
So, that was my first experience, my junior year of high school, right where I knew I wanted to go into business.
Thank you guys, I appreciate you sharing it, and I know some of our audience probably won't be able to relate. Especially punch cards, but yes, those were things we were doing years back. I think of the technology today, we've come a long way.
Kind of speaking about coming a long way, I'm going to throw this next question here to you, Colin, then we'll go over to Prem, but can you tell us just the changes, maybe the biggest change you've seen over your career in modeling?
Guest: Colin Human
Oh, Paul, it's very, very clear in my mind. I think it was about 2014 or thereabouts. I was surfing the net, looking at modeling different things and I came across my dear friends, F1F9, and they were offering a 31-day free financial modeling course. So, I thought, well, why not? You know, I'm going to do this, 10 minutes a day for 31 days. And of course that started a whole, long relationship with Kenny Whitehall Jones and so on, and when they introduced, the first financial modeling standard, the fast standard, in my opinion, that was a major, major step forward, positive step forward in the development of financial models. I can tell you that we were building models through the eighties and nineties, and the problem in those days was there were no guidelines, there were no rules. There was nothing to follow. So the result is that four of us, all four of us would build the same model and all four models would look completely different because they were very often an expression of our personalities, let alone, you know, a particular style or system, or process that we were following, a particular methodology.
So I was delighted, and I've been singing the praises of Kenny and the F1F9 guys ever since because I think that these, I know that my dear friends here in Australia, they take umbrage with me because they think that their smart standard is smarter than the fast standard, typical, and I know of course of the code, but nevertheless, in a nutshell, I think that was in my lifetime of modeling. Of course, now we've got chat GPT and AI knocking on our door and so on, but at that stage, that was undoubtedly the biggest, and most positive development in modeling for a long time.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Thank you. Yes, you know, bringing in standards was huge and I appreciate you sharing that and a little bit of the backstory there.
So we're going to shift gears a little bit from you sharing standards there. Prem, can you talk a little bit about just, you know, the different tools you've used over your career in modeling? It sounds like you found Excel pretty early and that became your, tool of choice, but maybe just talk a little bit about, you know, some of the different tools you've used for modeling.
Guest: Prem Beejan
I started with Symfony. I did try with Lotus 1-2-3, and for some time I looked at Quattro Pro, but when Excel came in 1994, it was introduced here, I saw that it had a very big advantage over all the existing spreadsheets. So I switched to Excel and from then I saw all my friends switching to Excel over a period of two years.
Everybody switched to Excel. Now Excel kept on improving, after every three years I believe they were putting up a new version. With that improvement, my models were improving. But the models that I built, that I am still using, they date back in 1998. So, that was built on Excel 1997, where I had used a lot of the simple formulas, but very powerful way of generating my chart, bringing all the transaction detail in front of me, bringing my cost position and everything in front of me within a second. My target was three seconds to take a decision before I can buy or sell security at the stock market. And I used Excel 97 to do that.
From there, when Excel evolved, I could not find another tool. I did go for other spreadsheets that were on the Internet, I did have a look at them, but I say nobody could match the power of Excel till today because Excel has been growing every three years, and I believe this is the tool for financial modelers. If we move away from that, maybe the models would be different. I am not saying that we cannot build models in other tools, there could be other tools to build financial models, but the best, the easiest, the most accepted, the way it's made, the presentation, the reporting, and everything, it's all Excel.
At one time, I was telling my friends, I can do anything in Excel. So, even doing floor plans, when I was moving to a new office, my floor plans are made in Excel. That was the sort of tool I used. So Excel is my preferred choice.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Thank you, Prem, and I'll ask real quick, I'm going to guess, Colin and David, is Excel the tool you primarily use for modeling, or is there another tool that you'd say you use more often?
Guest: Colin Human
Oh, definitely Excel. Although, you know, Paul, as you're well aware, and Dave is well aware, in the early days, Excel was quite clunky, and its functionality was severely limited. Today we do things in Excel, which in those days would have been like pure magic. It has expanded, thank the Lord over time.
And of course, now we've got things like Lambdas and all that kind of stuff, which is coming in, which is even, a bit too advanced for me, at my ripe old age. So, yeah, but Excel, you know, it just gives you the flexibility. You can build what you like, really. I suppose therein lies its strength and its weakness.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
I'm not surprised to hear all of you say Excel, I think that's definitely the modeling platform of choice.
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Host: Paul Barnhurst
So, kind of a question here, you know, over the years of your career, and we'll start with you, David, what's kept you interested in modeling? What is it that you kind of really enjoy or find value in from your financial models?
Guest: David Thompson
I think in all of my roles I've had over the years, the various roles, it's always come back to the quality of the model, underlying model, and the underlying assumptions that you need in the model, in order to support evaluation or decision-making process, strategy, etc. So that sort of always brings you back to the tool model, and every time we've had consultants come into an industry I was in and sort of did work, came in, three, four, five weeks and left, they had a one-off project model. So I'd always then convert that one-off model into a long-term model that we could use, so I'd rebuild it, restructure it, pull it to pieces, and understand what they did to get to the answer, and then we could then use it for scenario planning and sensitivity. So I sort of cut my teeth learning off all the best of the world of the advisors coming in and taking what they did for a short-term project and turning into a long-term tool, and that's put me in good stead for, as I said, M&A, strategy, finance valuations, etc.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
As I heard it said recently, and this really resonated with me is, you know, financial models are the most important or the number one decision-making tool in finance, and I think that's really true, right? Billions of dollars, hundreds of billions if you think globally, are spent or decisions are made based on a model, based on something in a spreadsheet, and so it really it's amazing how much of an impact they can have.
So this next question, I'm sure all of you over the last year, have seen or heard or played with a ton of things around AI, right? Whether it's ChatGPT, we hear about BARD. Feels like every day we hear about a new tool coming out. Just want to get your guys's thoughts and we'll ask a couple of you here and we'll start with you, Prem on this one.
How do you see, you know, this generative AI, these tools impacting financial modeling?
Guest: Prem Beejan
AI is impacting a lot, not only, as you know, in financial models, but also in the coding field because code writers today, they use ChatGPT to shorten the time they were taking to write good codes. They're getting good codes out of it.
For me, AI is a sort of laser gun pointing at Excel. It will destroy Excel one day. That day, when AI will be able to read any financial model built and come with comments that detects all the errors, all the inconsistencies, and will make correction to those errors and inconsistencies and tell the user, these are the things you have made wrongly, this is the way it should be made, and then it has a native spreadsheet in it with all the icons all around to facilitate the user to communicate with AI, and that day will be the end of Excel. I'm sorry to say that. I'm very sad to hear about the end of Excel. But this is what I see in the future, what the AI can do.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
I appreciate you sharing that, Prem, and it's definitely going to be exciting and a little scary to watch and see, you know, how long it takes us to get there, but I appreciate that view. Colin, what are your thoughts as we see AI and all this going on?
Guest: Colin Human
Well, you know, it's a real eye-opener. I have been playing around quite a lot lately with Iain Morrow and Openbox.
You know, they, market Openbox. I looked at Modano some time ago and, there are unquestionably certain aspects of modeling that are mechanistic, if I can use that terminology, where AI is going to be incredibly useful, more powerful. infinitely quicker, etc, etc. You know, even in this day and age I use macros to create the template for my models.
So I've got a whole bunch of templates, and I say, well, I want a model, it's an annual model for 10 years, and I pick up a template and I run a macro, and it puts in the input sheet and the support schedules and builds the whole framework of the model, you know, in the blink of an eye. That's a form of AI, you know, but it's a very basic form of AI.
I need to say this to you, Paul. I'm a businessman. I'm not a modeler, and that is a huge distinction. I am a businessman blessed with exposure and knowledge of financial modeling. You know, in my business career, I've been the chairman of a number of companies, a couple of them listed in South Africa, or the managing director or CEO of other companies, most of which I've owned a controlling stake in, so my dedication to models comes from a slightly different perspective. I believe through all the different environments in which I've worked over the 50-odd years that I've been in business, there's been one consistent fact: every time a model. AI is going to always be part of my life, and I think there's only one aspect of AI which I'm personally uncertain about, and that's having built the model, having done all the analysis, having produced all the numbers for us, the sensitivity analysis and everything, is the decision making. I don't know that AI will ever evolve to the point where it can make those kinds of business, if I can use that expression, business decisions.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Thank you. I appreciate that, Colin. Dave, anything you want to add to that, to what the two said there?
Guest: David Thompson
Look, I agree with everything Prem and Colin have said, and like Colin, I'm a business person first and a financial modeler second, but I think AI, the way I'm interpreting it and seeing everybody's involved with today is it's great to do, fantastic to understand the basics and to learn and continually learn, it's a learning program. One of the best podcasts I listened to is the original lady that built ChatGPT and how it works and what the premise they went through to do that, and how they created it, fascinating how that actually was put together and what it's meant to do, but I think like Colin, it will always come down to the individual expertise and experience, will override all the background basics.
So, I do know that historically when AI was in its infancy, there's an example of a lawyer who was found out in court, relied on AI, generated court cases, did the work, but they were not real court cases. They were generated by AI and the opposing lawyer couldn't find the court cases to challenge and they had to admit that they used AI to generate court cases and they weren't real.
So, yeah, buyer beware as they say.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
I agree with all of you that there's the human judgment element. You know, you can automate anything that's mechanical, mechanistic, that's a process, right? At some point, we'll figure out as long as it's structured, all that you can figure out. As long as you can give it all the inputs, it can figure out how to model it, but you still need that human judgment, the decision-making, ultimately to help guide that final decision.
And that kind of leads into our next question here, I believe. You know, what do you believe are the skills that are most important to be a great financial modeler? And David, we'll start with you.
Guest: David Thompson
So technical modeling, of course, no brainer, but in my world, because of the business stuff and the things I get involved with, I think we add a lot of value because I understand accounting, I've got an accounting degree, I've got a commerce degree, I've done tax law, commercial finance, corporate finance, I've studied corporate finance a lot, business commercial experience, 30-40 years in doing business world, but then most importantly, the school of hard knocks.
I spent as much time as necessary to get the scope of the model right and agreed upfront, and then structure the model according to smart, fast, or best practice modeling standards, whatever they are. Like someone, a previous guest on your podcast has said, you've got to have the good foundations first before you start anything else.
So I spent most of my time in that world where I tried to get the trade-off right between robust model, flexible model, and user friendly model. And my world is in that little concentric circle.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
I think we all struggle with that balance for sure. Colin, what would you add to that? What are your thoughts?
Guest: Colin Human
You know, Paul, when we run training, we always say to the trainees that there are four basic pillars of knowledge that you need to be a good financial modeler. One is you have to understand those Excel functions necessary to use in modeling. The second is you have to understand accounting and finance. The third, you have to understand corporate finance, metrics, terminology, and so on. And the last thing, of course, is best practice financial modeling methodology.
So, those are the four pillars of knowledge. You know, having said that, I think I was at the financial modeling summit a year or two ago and I made a speech about understanding the business case, and maybe that's the businessman in me and I totally agree with David so much when he says, you really got to get the foundation right. And when I talk about understanding the business case, I don't just mean, you know, a superficial, I mean, a total in-depth understanding of all the key drivers of that particular project or company as the case may be. That for me is this, you know, you can be the best model in the world, but if your input drivers are wrong, your model is going to be wrong.
You've got to spend time, really quality time, in isolating those values, understanding the business case.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Prem, anything you'd like to add to that?
Guest: Prem Beejan
For me, I would say, out of all the skills, I have two, probably three, which are on top of the list.
The first one is the financial model has to be a very good designer. Like, he has to design it before starting the model. He has to put up the flow properly, the input, the processing, and the output in such a way that the design fits together and they stand strongly. That will make a sort of robust model.
The second is the use of the formulas. So, he should use all the simple formulas that are in Excel that are easy to understand but are able to do the job.
And finally, for me, I use a lot of VBA to automate the model. So, writing simple codes, like not 20 lines of code, but five lines of code to do the job. Simple lines.
Those are the three sort of skills I use in priority.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Thank you, I appreciate that, Prem. And I really love how you started with, they have to be a designer. I mean, I think if there's one thing that's come clear and talking to all of you and the different people I talked to on the show is just the importance of being able to think through design and make sure you have a well designed model. Your assumptions are critical for designing the model well. If you do those two things, a lot of the rest of it should flow together pretty well. And so that's definitely something I've seen and kind of learned myself and been validated as I talked to different people, so, thank you.
So we have a couple more questions here before we're going to move to our rapid-fire section, so we'll kind of run through those and I'm really excited to do this with a couple of different guests today. So this next question, and I'm just going to ask two of you here on in kind of the interest of time is, over the last few years, we've seen a ton about move toward these financial modeling accreditations, you know FMI has that. We first saw kind of standards come out, now we've moved to see more and more ways to try to accredit people and so I just want to get your guys's thoughts about the need for a formal accreditation. Why do you think that might be important and your thoughts about it and, David, why don't we go ahead and start with you on that?
Guest: David Thompson
I think it's a very good progression for the financial modeling world, but a newly minted course certificate is just the beginning in my mind. So, if you think of the universities that the kids, I call them the kids, the kids straight out of university with the degrees, they're still wet behind the ears, even though they've got a degree or a certificate, but they want the corner office straight away.
So, I think there still needs to be training in the real world from scratch once you have the certificate.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Totally agree. I think a certificate is a starting place. You still need that real-world training, so thank you.
Colin, anything you want to add on that, your thoughts on, you know, kind of these accreditations?
Guest: Colin Human
Paul, I'm a total and completely dedicated follower of FMI. I think it's one of the best things that's evolved over time, and I think that, you know, so many people in my experience, all over the world because as you gathered earlier, I've traveled all over the world to be financial modelers or have financial modeling knowledge or experience, but, when you quiz them a little bit, it becomes clear quite early on that their knowledge is rather shallow. And I also want to mention one other thing. When you are busy in the field of placements and people come to you and claim as one of their skills that they are financial modelers, I think it's hugely beneficial if they're able to support that statement with either the Advanced Financial Modeling or one of the levels of qualification from the FMI.
So, I've been a supporter of FMI. Goal Fix, my company in South Africa is in fact, the only FMI-approved trainer in the whole of Southern Africa, and I even changed some of that course material to align it with the requirements of the FMI examinations.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Thank you for sharing, Colin, and I did see that, that you did training on that. I think that's great, and you're the only one there, so I can tell you're a huge fan of what they're doing at FMI and, you know, Prem, I know you're a big fan. I know you were recently awarded the Master Financial Modeler by FMI, that's the level three, first year they did it. And if I remember, right, I think there are 6 people globally right now that have been awarded that designation.
So, can you talk about that experience and then also, why you decided to earn the designation? So maybe just share a little bit about that.
Guest: Prem Beejan
I would start first of all by expressing my gratitude to FMI, to Ian and his team for having awarded me this MFM. Also very grateful to all the authors of some 30-35 books on Excel I read during my career, and also grateful to all the professionals and participants of the various platforms where I learned a lot, I must say. All the time I have been there present, making comments, giving solutions, but learning a lot from everybody. And finally, I'm very grateful to the almighty for having kept me in good health so that I can transmit the skills, the knowledge, the techniques, and some secrets also I'm giving out.
I won't keep any secrets in Excel now. I used to keep some secrets, while I was in office, but now I am giving it to the public.
So that's on one side. The second, why that interested me, I believe there are many good professional modelers who could have applied for that, but probably due to the workload, you know, they're not able, available to make an application. It happens when you're working. So they didn't make the application. So I did make the application because I'm a part-time now, I'm a retired person, so I'm part-time in my job and I read, you know, the requirements of MFM and when I saw all the requirements I saw that I could fit easily in all of them, especially in the type of models I built.
The models that I submitted were built way back in 1998, 1999, and year 2000. They were built for a specific purpose and they were not copied from somebody else. They were all originated from the need for an activity because I was doing fund management, I was doing stock picking, I was doing management of the registry, and the investment of the people, and I wanted to have models to assist me.
So, those are the things where I thought I was taking decisions in three seconds, sitting in front of my computer and just dropping down from a click the list of the security I want to invest in. And my target was within three seconds, I should be able to tell the broker, yes, buy or sell it. And I built the model towards it.
Those existed and I thought, you know, I can get an accreditation with FMI because I believed in FMI for a long time. I'm the only accreditation body giving a valid accreditation. So this is one, sort of, incentive I got to apply for that.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Thank you for sharing, like I said, you know, congratulations. I mean, that is a big accomplishment, something to be proud of, and I think it's clear from all of you and what I'm hearing, the accreditation, you know, it's a starting place. It’s not a finish, but it helps validate and help show that, hey, we can build a model and you've put in time, right? Just like I've heard with the CPA. Remember I was talking to someone from the CPA and he was like, “We look at that as a starting place. That's to help validate that somebody is qualified to get in here and learn this career. It doesn't mean that they're done”. And so I think it's great we see that growing.
So what we're going to do here, just kind of, we got one last question, then we're going to move into the rapid-fire section, and I'll walk through how that's going to work.
So the last question here, before we move to that, and then kind of wrap up is for you, David. I know your business really helps companies be successful, and one thing you've talked a lot about is bringing strategy to business. So, why do you think strategic thinking is so important for the financial modeler?
Why is that a critical skill that we need to have in this process?
Guest: David Thompson
Strategic thinking is really crucial for financial modelers as it allows them to create dynamic, adaptable, insightful models that can support a company's strategy and decision-making. It's for several reasons. Long-term planning, so we get involved financial models often for project outcomes over extended periods, you need to do scenarios, changing market conditions, impact on the financial health of the business over time. Multiple decision making used for capital allocation, investment planning, budgeting, that’s what you need to be flexible, adaptable to handle that, risk assessment, identify the key risks associated with the business and financial performance over time. Models,
I always say to people, I build financial models to reflect and quantify an organization's strategy. That's what you do. That's what models do. So the line, the strategy, the assumptions, the keys as Colin talked about, projections with the broader strategy, the objective, doing all the key scenario analysis, analyzing all the various options around that. I do mining models, which can have 20, 30, 40, 50, buying a toll road. You run 50 different scenarios to do that. Models that need to adapt to changing landscapes business, consumer behavior, technology changes, shifts in industry and resource allocation, human capital. It goes on and on and on.
So strategic thinking and financial modeling is combined with all that, and then you have to communicate that to somebody. Sell it to an investment bank, sell it to a board, sell it to stakeholders, non executives, you name it. So you're going to distill all that information down to allow people to make informed decisions, and again, I’ll come back to ultimately strategic thinking helps financial modelers contribute to value creation of the organization, which is what I do for a living. How do you create value and you need the tool to be able to do that. So, a long way of saying, strategic thinking is so important in the connectivity to financial modeling.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Thank you. Well said, I couldn't agree more. You looked like you had something you wanted to add there, Colin.
Guest: Colin Human
I'm bursting to add something!
Host: Paul Barnhurst
I could tell!
Guest: Colin Human
Because I am so, so, so, supportive of what Paul said, I must tell you a very brief story. I had a lifelong friend who was a strategy consultant, sadly, no longer with us. Patrick Johnson was his name, really effective, great strategy consultant. And I used to say to him, Pat, let me tell you, my dear boy, unquantified strategy is just wishful thinking. It's as simple as that.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
I love that, thank you. The unquantified strategy is wishful thinking. Great way to put it. That's a nice way to kind of put a bow on that conversation there, so thank you. Strategy is huge.
So now we're going to move to the rapid-fire section. How this is going to work, and I haven't done this with three guests before, so this will be kind of fun to see how we run through this.
But like I said, the idea is rapid-fire. You have to take a stand. So, one thing we don't allow as an answer is “it depends” because I recognize you could say “it depends” to all of these. What we have, is we have about 10 questions that are common to modeling, and some people have strong opinions on these, some you may not.
So we'll start with one of you. I'll ask the question, so for example, I might say “Circular or no circular references”, and you'll quickly answer which one. And then I'll go to the next one, and we'll go through all of them with one of you, and then we'll go to the next person and we'll give them two options, we can either run through all of them with them, or if they just have one or two where, hey, they're different, you can just say, hey, I'd like to just cover those.
So, we'll try the first one here and then we'll go to the next person. And there's 10 of these. It should take us about a minute to run through them.
Colin, why don't we start with you on this and, we'll give you the opportunity to run through them, and then when we're all done, if there's one you guys want to elaborate on, we'll give you a minute to elaborate.
So first one, circular or no circular references?
Guest: Colin Human
No circular references.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
VBA or no VBA?
Guest: Colin Human
V B A, but limited.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Horizontal or vertical?
Guest: Colin Human
Hmm, vertical.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
All right. Dynamic arrays, yes or no?
Guest: Colin Human
Yes.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
External workbook links, yes or no?
Guest: Colin Human
Yes, sometimes must be.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Named ranges or no named ranges?
Guest: Colin Human
Definitely named.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Do you follow a formal standard for all your modeling, yes or no?
Guest: Colin Human
Yes.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Will Excel ever die? Yes or no?
Guest: Colin Human
I don't want to contradict my dear friend Prem. No.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Alright. Will AI ever build the models for us?
Guest: Colin Human
Yes.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
And the last one, what is your Lookup function of choice?
Guest: Colin Human
XLOOKUP.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
That was quick, you already had it, XLOOKUP. All right. So why don't we go to David next on these and I'm just going to run through them real quick and you can answer each of them. Circular or no circular?
Guest: David Thompson
No circular.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
No, okay. VBA or no VBA?
Guest: David Thompson
No for logic, yes for running scenarios and sensitivities.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
All right. Got it. Horizontal or vertical?
Guest: David Thompson
Horizontal.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Excel dynamic arrays, yes or no?
Guest: David Thompson
Yes.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
External workbook links. Yes or no?
Guest: David Thompson
Yes, but a separate worksheet.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Named ranges are no named ranges named?
Guest: David Thompson
Named, yes.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Follow formal standards for modeling, yes or no?
Guest: David Thompson
Yes. Mostly.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
I can go with that. Will Excel ever die? Yes or no?
Guest: David Thompson
Yes, eventually.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Will AI ever build the models for us?
Guest: David Thompson
Yep. Already happening.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
And what is your Lookup function of choice?
Guest: David Thompson
XLOOKUP.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
All right, Prem, you're up on this one now. So, circular or no circular references?
Guest: Prem Beejan
No circular.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
VBA or no VBA?
Guest: Prem Beejan
Yes, VBA.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Horizontal or vertical?
Guest: Prem Beejan
Vertical.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Dynamic arrays, yes or no?
Guest: Prem Beejan
No.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
All right. External workbook links, yes or no?
Guest: Prem Beejan
No links.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
All right. Named ranges or no named ranges?
Guest: Prem Beejan
Yes. Dynamic name also.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
All right. Follow formal standards when building your models.
Guest: Prem Beejan
Yes.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Will Excel ever die?
Guest: Prem Beejan
I think so.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Yeah, I think you answered that one earlier. So, will AI ever be able to build models for us?
Guest: Prem Beejan
Yes.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
And then what is your Lookup function of choice?
Guest: Prem Beejan
Index and match.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Index and match. All right, so now what we're going to do is we're just going to give each of you one minute to elaborate on any of those that you want. So, if there's one that you just kind of want to elaborate a little bit on your answer, pick one and we'll give you an opportunity. And we'll start with you, David.
Guest: David Thompson
Actually, I've heard a few people say this, Paul, vertical as opposed to horizontal. I think horizontal, we're talking across time. So I have my time in columns and my descriptors down rows, so that's what I mean by horizontal. I'm not sure if the guys mean the same thing with vertical or not.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Let me explain real quick. When I think vertical or horizontal usually what I'm referring to is some people like to do as much of the model as they can in one sheet, is typically vertical. So you have your P&L, your balance sheet your cash flow all in one sheet, versus horizontal where you say everything should be in a different sheet. So you've seen some people that put almost the entire model all in one sheet as much as possible. That tends to be vertical. Horizontal tends to be, I like to use a lot of sheets. And so you have some people that have strong opinions on that and some that don't, but that was the intent there.
Guest: David Thompson
So I'm still horizontal.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
All right. Perfect. Colin.
Guest: Colin Human
Yes. I gave a qualified use of VBA and let me explain. One of the key issues of the fast standard is T for transparency: easy to use, easy to understand, easy to validate or verify. And the last thing you need in a model, in my opinion, is some black box doing something which nobody can understand. Most people can't read VBA. It's as simple as that, especially financial modelers. So, you've got some magical VBA formula in your model doing something, which is inexplicable. Not for me, sorry, that doesn't work.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
All right. Thank you for that elaboration.
Prem, is there anyone you want to elaborate on?
Guest: Prem Beejan
For the name range, it's mostly Dynamic name range that I use, and the formula they have been using for, I don't know, more than 25 years now is the offset formula. So, that became as a sort of secret, you know, to create a dynamic name range and then use a very simple VBA. That's why I said not LEN VBA. Colin, maybe you would not agree with me. The simple VBA is just one line of code in a sort of loop, you know, it's just one line taking one value, copying to a dynamic name range, and that value is computed using formula. So it does magic, you know, you can do anything with that.
And this is where most of my models are very strong. Like, even now, when I do automation of an activity, they are all made of name range, and most of the name range are dynamic name range. So they just use the offset formula with match formula to match the two sides of the grid, the top side and the left side, and then pull out the inside information, whether it's a range or whether it's a single cell. And that is fed into a dynamic name range, which is using VBA to do some sort of computation. And all my VBAs are very simple to understand. I wrote a lot of VBAs for professionals who had never used VBAs and showed them how to write the shortcuts, and they were very comfortable now using those shortcuts, knowing how to write them.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Thank you. I appreciate that and elaborating, I appreciate each of you answering those, and, you know, we see a few different answers, but for the most part, I'd say you guys had very similar thoughts on these and that tends to be the case for most of them.
And so we're going to go ahead and wrap up. And so I just have two questions left for each of you. The first one, as you look back over your career, what's one piece of advice you can share that you believe would help people be more successful modelers? So, if there's one thing you would share, what would that be? And Prem, we'll go ahead and start with you.
Guest: Prem Beejan
There's one word I have always used. It's passion. Be passionate about Excel. Excel can do anything, and be passionate about the activity you're doing. So model that activity the way you see it, and Excel can do it and automate it. If you allow me, I can give a recent example.
Last year, we started the training center, and, we had to write, you know, to register the participants, generate the invoices, make the payments, have the attendance sheet prepared according to what the legislation says here, and then print even the name plates, you know, and the certificate of attendance.
I just wrote the model because there was a need to do that, and you know, anybody can use it, any staff now is using that to do the whole range of activities.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Thank you, I appreciate that Prem. Colin, how about you?
Guest: Colin Human
I would strongly urge any aspiring modeler to go through a formal financial modeling training course with an accredited training provider. It's as simple as that. It gives you all the basics, to absorb it, to understand it, and gives you the platform, as Dave said earlier on, on which you can then build in your real world environment.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
And David, how about you?
Guest: David Thompson
Use simple logic, style, formats, flow, communications, etc., and avoid unnecessary complexity, and always, always push for Pareto rather than spurious precision.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
If I was to summarize that you mentioned one, keep it simple. Seemed like a key thing there, and you know, there's a real importance of learning and understanding design. So I appreciate you guys all making time, I know, we've had a few little challenges technically as we've gone through this, so, I appreciate you taking the time.
And so the last thing I want to ask, if somebody wants to get a hold of you, what's the best way to do that? Colin?
Guest: Colin Human
Oh, phone me. Or send an email, you know, to colin@goalfix.za.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
Perfect. Prem, how about you?
Guest: Prem Beejan
Go to the website fmcmauritius.com.
Host: Paul Barnhurst
All right, great. And we'll add, David's contact information in the, in the show notes, we'd lost him here toward the end, but I just want to wrap up by saying thank you so much for joining me. I really enjoyed hearing your guys experiences. I know our audience will enjoy it.
So, you know, Colin, David, Prem, thanks for being on the show.
Financial Modeler's Corner was brought to you by Financial Modeling Institute. Visit FMI at www.fminstitute.com/podcast and use code PODCAST to save 15% when you enroll in one of their accreditations today.