The FP&A Guy

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The Art of Financial Modeling and Data Management with Adam Rakich

Paul Barnhurst

Welcome to the Financial Modeler's Corner (FMC), where we discuss the Art and Science of Financial Modeling with your host Paul Barnhurst.


Financial Modeler's Corner is sponsored by the Financial Modeling Institute (FMI), the most respected accreditation in Financial Modeling globally.

In this episode, Paul Barnhurst delves into the intricate world of data integration, especially within financial modeling and FP&A. The discussion revolves around the practical challenges and solutions for accessing and automating data flows, a topic crucial for finance professionals who often grapple with multiple data sources and complex modeling tasks. The episode offers insights into the evolving landscape of data management tools and how they can streamline processes for businesses.

Adam Rakich, a seasoned expert in the world of FP&A tools and data integration, joins the show. With a diverse background spanning social media marketing software, FP&A consultancy, and leadership roles at companies like Workday and OneStream, Adam now focuses on making data integration more accessible through his work at Data Blend. His deep understanding of the challenges accountants and financial modelers face with data management makes him a valuable resource for listeners looking to optimize their processes.

Key takeaways from this week's episode include:

  • The common pitfalls and solutions in financial modeling and data integration.

  • When and why businesses should transition from spreadsheets to specialized planning tools.

  • Practical strategies for automating data workflows, even when dealing with outdated or diverse systems.

  • The importance of understanding APIs, SQL, and other technical aspects of data integration.

  • How to build a business case for investing in data integration solutions.


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In today’s episode:
[01:30] - Introduction and worst financial model experiences

[07:18] - Adam shares his career path from economist to data integration expert

[09:38] - Transitioning from spreadsheets to planning tools

[16:56] - The challenges of data integration

[26:01] - Hybrid approaches to data automation

[28:55] - Tools and strategies for freelancers and small businesses

[37:46] - Adam talks about his book and the key takeaways for readers.

[44:32] - Rapid fire questions on financial modeling tools and techniques.

[52:47] - Final thoughts and contact information


Full Show Transcript

[00:00:00] Host: Paul Barnhurst: So what's that worst model you've ever seen or that you had to work with?



[00:00:03] Guest: Adam Rakich: All the components in this sector have insanely detailed and well known failure rates. They're really, really small. Like, you know, millions of hours. One might fail. If you can imagine, I totally fell into software for accountants. I had basically had enough of marketing now. Marketing is very important and very valuable, of course, but what I wanted to be more involved with was something where I could actually see some direct benefits to what I was doing. I like my spreadsheet. Why should I move? And the answer is a lot of the time, if you don't think you've got a problem, I'm not going to be able to convince you that you've got one. An accountant to realize that they don't have to download that spreadsheet, spend the hours doing it, check it, double check it, then re-upload it. That is a material improvement in someone's life. You will at least know why you're not automating something like why what the lift would be to do x, y, and z so that when the client says, hey, why are we doing this? You say, well, here are your options, right? You could, you could do you could pay a little bit extra up front. It would reduce my hours on this or I can do the hours. And then you look super knowledgeable.



[00:01:13] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Welcome to Financial Modelers Corner where we discuss the art and science of financial modeling with your host, Paul Barnhurst. Financial Modelers Corner is sponsored by Financial Modeling Institute. Welcome to Financial Modelers Corner. I am your host, Paul Barnhurst. In this podcast, we talk all about the art and science of financial modeling with distinguished guests from around the globe. The Financial Modelers Corner podcast is brought to you by the Financial Modeling Institute. FMI offers the most respected accreditations in financial modeling. I am excited to welcome to the show Adam Rakich. Adam, welcome to the show.



[00:02:00] Guest: Adam Rakich: Thanks, Paul. I'm delighted to be here.



[00:02:04] Host: Paul Barnhurst: We're excited to have you. So I'm just going to let our guests know we'll jump into the normal first question here in just a second. But this episode, we're going to talk a little bit about data kind of accessing data, what Adam does around that. He's also worked a lot in the CPM space quite a bit with data. So I thought it'd be fun to have a little bit of a different guest than somebody who is sitting building models all day. But I think there's definitely a lot we can glean from this. So really excited to have this discussion. But before we get to it, you get the same question everybody else gets. We all know everybody has that horror story. If they've ever worked with a financial model, ever worked in a spreadsheet. So what's that worst model you've ever seen or that you had to work with?



[00:02:45] Guest: Adam Rakich: Yeah, so I don't know if this counts as as a cop out or a cheat on support, but I'm going to say a model that I built, in my. And you're not the.



[00:02:55] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Only one who's mentioned their own models.



[00:02:57] Guest: Adam Rakich: All right. Good. Okay, good good, good. And the reason for that is so I had and you don't know it because not even on my LinkedIn. Because it was that brief. But out of university, I started as an economist. So that's why I started university. I got a job with a specialist consultancy in Sydney in Australia because I'm from Auckland in New Zealand. I hated the job. I didn't last three months, but not just because of the model. Unrelated things, but so what this consultancy did was working with regulated energy. So I think it was a distribution network. So, you know, you have generation, then you have transmission with the big high voltage lines, then distribution to your house. Right. So because they have a monopoly on distribution in the city, they get a specific percent return on investment. It was a good one. So they want to maximize their investment. So the regulator knows that. So they have to justify the investment as being worthwhile to the to the city. I won't say which one, but it's one of the big cities in Australia. So they came to us. They want to build a new substation. I'm not 100% sure what a substation does, but it adds redundancy in case another of couple of substations failed and the city has a blackout.



[00:04:05] Guest: Adam Rakich: Right. And from a modeling perspective, a lot of it was very easy because all the components in this sector have insanely detailed and well known failure rates. They're really, really small. Like, you know, millions of hours one might fail. So multiply those by however many substations fail, you get the percent chance for a citywide blackout. Fine. Better than most modeling jobs, right? But what it was, why it was bad to me, is because you then need a number for the cost to the city of a citywide blackout. And where do you get that assumption from? Well, as it happened, Auckland had had its own blackout a few years prior. There were some numbers from there. But where did they come from? Who knows? Right? Somebody made some really heroic assumptions and made up some figures. They got to a newspaper somewhere. We took them, made even more heroic assumptions to scale them up to a much bigger and completely economically different city. And that basis was, that's what's used to justify millions of dollars of investment. The model was very sound because it was very simple. It was very basic finance. But the fact that so much was resting on these insane assumptions, like, I've never really forgotten how outraged I was that this was happening in the real world.



[00:05:28] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, it's pretty amazing sometimes how much can depend on a simple assumption and sometimes how little thought goes into that assumption or validation. It can definitely be scary. You're going wait, we're depending how much on what? Oh, I get it.



[00:05:46] Guest: Adam Rakich: I mean, I get there's no other way to do it. Like you have to put something in place because otherwise they're just by 50 substations and charge loads for energy use and make loads of money. But it's the best of a bad choice, I guess.



[00:06:02] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. When you were mentioning power outages and rarely failing, I still remember I lived in a smaller city and we lost power for an entire day in the city. A bird had ran into one of the main transformers on the substation and fried it. Both the bird and the substation.



[00:06:18] Guest: Adam Rakich: I'm sure the. I'm sure the bird had a terrible day. Yeah, yeah.



[00:06:21] Host: Paul Barnhurst: The bird had a worse day than I did. I at least got to go to sleep that night. But it was summer, you know, this was desert, 100 plus degrees, and then nothing's working. And yeah, it made for, , but.



[00:06:32] Guest: Adam Rakich: You know, not because it was my first job as well. Like, I think when you're around for a while, you realize that in consulting firms, most of the work is done by basically fresh grads. But, , I didn't know that at the time, and it was quite shocking that it was in my hands, something that might substantially increase, , city's energy bills.



[00:06:51] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, it is amazing. As you start to learn the responsibility and the impact certain people can have on different things, and you're like, should that be a more senior person or somebody who actually knows what they're doing?



[00:07:07] Guest: Adam Rakich: That's okay. They put their name on the front page, so it's fine.



[00:07:11] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I hear you. Well, we could we could spend the whole show talking about consulting and some of those things, but we we'll try not to do that. So why don't you tell our audience about yourself, your background and what you're doing today where you ended up?



[00:07:26] Guest: Adam Rakich: Yeah. Well, I mean, apart from that brief career as an economist, actually, when I was in New Zealand, I started nerdy, you know, break, fix work on office computers, supporting point of sale systems for a big hardware chain. But then I moved to the UK, where I am now. , and my start in software was very, very different, , to what I'm doing now because I worked a few years in social media marketing software, if you can imagine. , I totally fell into software for accountants. , I had basically had enough of marketing. , marketing is very important and very valuable, of course, but what I wanted to be more involved with was something where I could actually see some direct benefits to what I was doing. , and I started in this boutique consultancy doing FP&A tools. At the time it was in for Jedox and board. And then based on my experience there, I ended up at Adaptive Insights. And I'm sure a lot of people, , who might watch this will know they got bought by workday. And I spent a few years with with workday after that, overseeing a team across Europe and then kind of had enough in the big business. Wanted to go a bit smaller again. Ended up at one stream. , who can probably most people know. Very powerful platform for stack consolidation and planning. And then I kind of felt I needed to do something different. I took a break, but, , the founder of Data Blend, , who I know from Adaptive Days because he was one of the big adaptive partners in the US. He got in touch, asked if I wanted to start building out Europe, and it seemed a great fit because, yes, something different, , but obviously still very involved with the Office of Finance and FP&A. You know, I would say these days with the integration stuff, , 5050. Right. , 5050, it's FP&A focused. So the the planning or the consolidation tool is the center of the universe, and the other half is where we're focusing around the, you know, the accounting package being the center of the universe.



[00:09:25] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yep, I know I get it. It's the end of the day. It's that data that's the center of the universe. It's a question of how the company, what tool and how they want to do it. So great. I appreciate the background. As you mentioned, you spent quite a bit of time one stream adaptive and many of these different planning tools. So that leads me to a question I'd love to start off with. You know, when people are building models, doing that planning, when, when should they be thinking about using a planning tool versus just doing their modeling in a spreadsheet? Say they're working in FP&A, right? They're doing some of that budgeting and forecasting. We definitely have some people who do that. We have some that don't. But you're in that situation. How do you decide it's the time to, you know, use a tool beyond a spreadsheet for modeling? How do you think about it? Obviously, you've had many of those conversations with customers, I'm sure, over the years.



[00:10:19] Guest: Adam Rakich: , yeah. Yeah, a lot. I mean, there's I mean, sometimes it's really obvious, sometimes, you know, you need a tool because your Excel book takes 20 minutes to open and half the time it crashes your PC. Yeah, if you're having that and you think that's that's normal, it isn't. You should go. Go and find a tool. So you mean.



[00:10:38] Host: Paul Barnhurst: The 1 billion? The one one? , it was one gigabyte spreadsheet. I had one time that was too big.



[00:10:45] Guest: Adam Rakich: I know it's crazy, but take my word for it. Yeah, but, , otherwise, actually, you know, say, hey, when should we consider it? And sometimes people would say that to me, like, hey, I like my spreadsheet. Why should I move? And the answer is, a lot of the time, if you don't think you've got a problem, I'm not going to be able to convince you that you've got one. But sometimes you do need to step back and go, well, look, if it's just for you or a couple of people that you work with directly and you can like go over and bother in person. Ideally,  you're probably you're probably fine. Look, you're probably going to get some benefit out of a tool, but you probably don't want to pay what they want to charge you to do it. The, the, the main push almost all of the time is where you've got enough people involved that the planning process is painful when you're trying to do on spreadsheets, where you're sending out even like a relatively small amount, like ten spreadsheets for basic G&A costs? You know, then every time you make a change, you've got to change ten of those. You've got to resend them. Hope you don't make a mistake. Hope they save the right one and don't send you back an old version. Then you have to stack them together. You add them up. You hope you get it right. The links don't break right fundamentally. And I have had arguments from a couple of people, but spreadsheets are not multi-user and anyone trying to make them that way.



[00:12:05] Guest: Adam Rakich: I mean, you're probably spending more time than you should on it, you know? And even if the process is sort of okay, there's often a lot of benefit to a planning tool. Maybe the data entry process can be better for the end user who might not be finance, right? A lot of these users in planning, they hate you by default, right? They don't want to be doing budgeting. They hate it and they hate you. So anything you can do to make it easier a nice workflow, some email reminders, that sort of thing. And actually so often what really sells it to the business is the reporting side, right. So we're planning everyone's planning in one place. We then then just bring in the actuals. We've got variance reporting that everyone has access to  markup reasons for variance and those sort of things. , so it's not just like, hey, we're making you do a budget, but also, look, we're giving you really good reporting on your numbers, that sort of thing. , some people will still hate you. You can't really do anything about that. But you can. You can do your best, you know, just take a step back and think. Look, yes, we've been doing this for five years, but is this really the best it can be? , just because it's always taken that long, however many weeks, to do the process, however many hours of your time to stick them together at the end, it doesn't. It doesn't have to be, , that way.



[00:13:30] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. No, I think that's a good answer. And typically I tell people when the pain is great enough that the the benefit of flexibility you get from a spreadsheet is no longer worth all the cons that come with it. It's time to upgrade all the pain that comes, like you said. Yes. Can it do some multi-user stuff? Yeah, but is it really a scalable enterprise platform designed for easy collaboration? No. Sure. Can Google Sheets get a little better? But there just comes a point like what you're talking about and different spreadsheets going around, links breaking your users, hating you beyond the fact they just don't like to budget are all signs that yeah, this may not be the best choice. You may need something more, and then that doesn't even get into all dealing with all the data and integrating that, which we'll talk quite about quite a bit about. So I think, you know, I'm with you. I've seen some of those same conversations. Yeah.



[00:14:28] Guest: Adam Rakich: And I think the other thing as well is that people often point at, you know, Bob, who's doing some really specific revenue modeling and like, well, Bob will never give up spreadsheets and Bob's really important. So we have to do spreadsheets like, well, you don't actually have to have everyone on a tool, right? Some tools will happily link, you know, go, well, he can do his insane Excel model and then have a tab which just then refreshes into the tool automatically. Or worst case, you can just dump it in. You don't don't have to be held back by this weak link who just demands it.



[00:14:56] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, as they say, right. You'll price spreadsheets out of our cold, dead hands, is what finance people say. And that doesn't mean you can still have a tool. Many tools do a great job of integrating with spreadsheets and allowing you to work Bidirectionally work both in the spreadsheet and in a tool. This isn't always an either or. And as I like to say, just because you have a tool doesn't mean you got rid of the spreadsheet. You're still going to use it for edge cases. There's still situations where it makes sense where you should use a spreadsheet. If I'm doing an M&A activity and I don't have all the data from the other company, I want to keep it very private. I don't want it in my mouth. There's probably a lot of reasons to just do that all in a spreadsheet and keep it separate.



[00:15:35] Guest: Adam Rakich: And if you think to yourself and you're telling people, we're going to get rid of spreadsheets, you're setting yourself up for failure, right? It's like, it's like if people want to go to the gym every day or diet or whatever, and if they if they're going, I will do this every day. It means the one day they don't, they'll, oh, well, everything's falling apart the same. I've seen it where people go, we never want to see another spreadsheet in the business. Like, that's not that's too much. I mean, I like where you're coming from, but you're probably just making a problem for yourself by saying that.



[00:16:04] Host: Paul Barnhurst: You had to mention diet, as I totally had a terrible dinner last night, and I got on the scale this morning and I was just like, oh man, I need to take better care of myself. You had to choose that one, didn't you? Adam, I.



[00:16:14] Guest: Adam Rakich: Actually, I'm afraid I regret to inform that I also had an. But see, I call it an excellent dinner out with a friend.  overse. , steak and sides and wine. , so, , similarly.



[00:16:27] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. See, mine wasn't with a friend. I don't know that it was really an excellent dinner. It was just one of those I don't care moments that you have. I'm going to eat this, this food, this junk food. But, hey, we all do it. And sometimes it is excellent. I totally agree with you.



[00:16:44] Guest: Adam Rakich: Well, I like to justify it because I'm with my friend. I don't see him very often, so.



[00:16:48] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I get it. We all, we all have our justification. They're, they're they're easy to to come up with. All right. So I want to spend most of the rest of the time talking about data. Data is a challenge everybody faces. I think it's especially challenging in finance because often we're the center being asked questions about everything. You're bringing all that data together and modelers and everybody deals with that. So I know you specialize in helping people coming up with solutions that access all those various data sources with data blends. Why don't you talk about talk a little bit about what you do and then what interests you in data? Why are you doing that? What what are you finding enjoyable about helping people access their data?



[00:17:33] Guest: Adam Rakich: Well, I mean, in terms of what what made me say yes to to to starting this role,  the thing about integration is that it's a solved problem, right? We've had solutions to this problem for as long as it's been a problem. , it's it's had to evolve a bit with cloud software, but it's always been possible. , but it's a solved problem that countless times in my career selling FBA software, I've seen people don't solve it. And it's always interesting. Well, why? Why is that? You know, when often when we were coming at it from the FPGA software space, we'd often be trying to kick the can down the road on integration because we knew that accountants would be scared of it. You know, we didn't want it to complicate the process. But, you know, when the founder of Data Blend said, hey, look, this is what we're doing with Data Blend, we think there's a big white space of people who could use integration that are not. I'm like, brilliant. Because like I said, the problem has been solved, but it's been expensive. And the idea of data blend is to to do it in a more cost effective way, make it more accessible to a broader range of people. And I think, I've seen it for myself. Like, it is really awesome and genuinely quite uplifting for an accountant to realize that they don't have to download that spreadsheet, spend the hours doing it, check it, double check it, then re-upload it. That is a material improvement in someone's life. And that's a fairly it's a fairly nice thing to be doing for a living. Look, I'm not saving the world or puppies, but it's it's like it's a it's a genuine impact in people's day to day.



[00:19:14] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. It's it's amazing. I teach Power Query, which obviously you can do a lot. You can pull a lot of data that way, a lot of other tools. And when people see they're like, you mean you can take my process where I'm doing all this copying and pasting and not only can I click one button and just stick it in a folder and it brings it all together, I can then make all these transformations and as well, and it will continue to do them each month. Like one guy had to look on his face like I could kiss you right now because it's like, how many hours you could save me if I learned that? I'm like, yeah, I think, yeah, that can save you hours.



[00:19:48] Guest: Adam Rakich: I've never I've never quite come up with the right way of putting it because I call it Stockholm syndrome that people have with their data. It's completely the wrong term. But I'm like, they don't they don't even think there's another way, right? They're just. So this is what we have to do. Oh, well, , I guess that's it. And then you say, oh, well, here's an option. And they go, no, no, I need to just do this. , that's one of the barriers to what I spend my days doing. It's just like, look, because I think accountants, they want to be able to get their arms around things, and they worry about the technical nature of stuff so that that often rather stick with an inefficient process. But it's their inefficient process, right. And they know every step of it in and out. And more importantly, they can earn it when if anything goes wrong. So I get it. Yeah.



[00:20:36] Host: Paul Barnhurst: They're they're comfortable with it. They own it. But let's let's dig into that a little bit more. Obviously one way people can access their data. There's a reason the most common button in software is export to Excel or export to a CSV, right. Pretty much every software has to have it. At the end of the day, whether you're exporting it and then copying and pasting whether you're using software. Let's talk about some of the common ways people access data today beyond the export to Excel. What are some of the common tools and things we're seeing being used to help us get at all the data that's out there, you know, cloud and all these different data sources, because it feels like data just is growing exponentially every day.



[00:21:23] Guest: Adam Rakich: Yeah. And that's, that's, , a truth that we all accept at this point. There is no shortage of data. , there is too much data. And you're right. You know, there's. Yeah, of course, you can download the file through the interface. You can always do that. But even if you even if you start with that, there's a lot of combinations and journeys to the end point. So once you've got a file, you could manipulate it in Excel and get it in the format that needs to be where it's going. But even if you manually download it, there are tools where you can say, I'm going to drop it into secure FTP and I'll have a tool of some description, pick it up, do the transform, and send it off. Or maybe I'm going to email it somewhere, or I'm going to put it on SharePoint. And because I work with plenty of tools, it's surprising. Number of tools don't even have an API, right. But they can. So we will still download a file. But it doesn't mean just because you've done one bit manually doesn't mean you have to do the rest manually. That's and that's a big thing. I stress to it to people a lot. But to your point, what other ways can you do it? Well, APIs in the cloud.



[00:22:26] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I told our audience, just in case you have someone who who's not familiar, what does API stand for or what is an API? Just give that 30s.



[00:22:32] Guest: Adam Rakich: Application programing interface. So back, you know, the way I explain it, you know there's still on premise databases in the world. I think most people know what a database is. Yeah, yeah. We used to just be able to plug into those. Right. That was in a cupboard in my office. But then it goes to cloud. We lose all that. So what an API says is right. Here's a special web address that you can communicate with some software on your end, can talk to and pass commands and query the piece of software and say, hey, tell me what all my customers are, tell me what orders I've got today and and get it back. Get it the response back. , the trick with those compared to databases and I think it's made things worse from an integration standpoint because where we had databases on on premise, which, by the way, there's still a stunning number of I've been so surprised at how many people have either got old software or software that they've made. They've made up their bespoke system. So a ton of those, but IT people would quite happily run, you know, connect to them, run SQL queries and scripts and do all that stuff. But now only the much larger firms will touch an API, right? Compared to the sort of people that would plug into it.



[00:23:44] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, all the new firms. It's true. In FP&A you see all these third gen tools and they're not going to on prem customers. They're trying to go all cloud because it's a lot easier to deal with a consistent across the board all APIs versus a big mix of things.



[00:23:59] Guest: Adam Rakich: But the annoying thing about APIs compared to SQL databases is there's no consistency, right? Normally a SQL database is a SQL database. No matter no matter what flavor it is, give or take. Yeah. But, and also unfortunately, a surprising number of tools have poor APIs. No APIs, , or an increasing trend is. Absolutely. We have an API, and your account manager will be in touch to send you the contract for API access, which is however many thousand you get. Right? , so even where APIs exist, they may not be suitable. So people will often still do the manual download. But like I said, APIs surprising number of on prem databases. And there are tools. Just because it's an on prem database doesn't mean you can't get into the cloud automatically. That's a common misconception. So well, we're stuck. We have to know there's plenty of software that will that'll bridge that gap for you. And then the another thing which is surprised me is how many pieces of software will do some sort of automation to get that file out for you. Right? So they will drop it to SftP somewhere for you. Secure FTP right. Or it will send you an email with the spreadsheet. And then whether you just download it from there or again, there are tools like integration platforms that can just receive that automatically from secure FTP or take it from an email. It doesn't feel quite as sexy and futuristic as a direct end to end connection. But for you, the user, it is right. It's just as automated as if it was an API connection. If they can spit out a file to email and someone picks it up automatically, you're in. You're in a good place, Same as if it was proper. Proper direct connection.



[00:25:47] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Has the same impact. Whether it's you don't see any of the transfer for comes into your inbox and goes out as long as you get the data where you need it and ends up with the same in the end, and you're not having to do a bunch of manual stuff doesn't really matter.



[00:26:01] Guest: Adam Rakich: But my my big thing is that I talk so much about so many people is a hybrid approach. Like, maybe you don't even download a file, maybe you start with the file. So I have this a lot with them. When I work with accounting packages, someone says, well, we have a third party payroll. , and they send me a spreadsheet each month and it says, here's what Paul got paid, here's what Adam got paid his taxes, insurance, boom, boom, boom, and like a human readable format. But it needs to be in a journal entry for the accounting system. Fine, write. Just because you've got a file doesn't mean you can't automate that. And if you're downloading manipulating re-uploading, the download and the re-upload are not what's taking you time. They're not what's causing you errors. They're not what you have to check. Right. It's the bit in the middle. And that can be very easily automated, even if you have no control over the systems on either side, which I think is important for you say if you if you're not permanently with an organization. Right.



[00:26:57] Host: Paul Barnhurst: FP&A guy here. And as you know, I am very passionate about financial modeling and the Financial Modeling Institute's mission. I have been a huge fan of the FMI for years, and I was super excited when they decided to sponsor the Financial Modelers Corner. I recently completed the Advanced Financial Modeler certification and loved the entire experience. It was top notch from start to finish. I love Better Modeler today for having completed the certification. I strongly believe every modeler needs to demonstrate they are a qualified financial modeler. In. One of the best ways to do that is through the FMI program. Earning the accreditation will demonstrate to your current and future employers that you are serious about financial modeling. What are you waiting for? Visit www.fminstitute.com/podcast and use Code podcast to save 15% when you enroll in an accreditation today. Yeah, there's definitely some truth to that, Right. Is you hear the term often ETL that transformation space can be automated even if the extracting and loading is manual.



[00:28:15] Guest: Adam Rakich: Exactly.



[00:28:16] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Which I've definitely I've had many situations where I've seen that or people doing that. And you try to automate that either. So we have a lot of people, especially today, that are what we'll call freelance financial modelers, fractional CFOs working with a lot of different companies, and they have different accounting packages. Sometimes it's QuickBooks, sometimes it's others, and they really struggle getting to the data. It's often a challenge. They want, hey, we'd love to get it automatically pulled into Excel typically or Google Sheets because they're dealing with small companies that aren't at that point where, hey, we want to go spend $20,000 or 50,000 or whatever the cost is to bring in a tool. They're small enough that it's they they like the flexibility. Any advice there? Are there certain tools you find that you recommend or ways to kind of get at that data? For those that are dealing with a lot of different companies, and they may have different systems and some may not have an API, some may have a poor API, and that hasn't have half the fields they want or whatever. How should they, you know, think about that. Any recommendations for those out there that are kind of dealing with their own day to hell, so to speak?



[00:29:22] Guest: Adam Rakich: Well, I'll do my I'll do my best. But I think in some ways I you're probably better qualified to talk to this than I am. But, you know, look, obviously freelance can mean a lot of different things. , that can be you could be there for a week. You could be there for six months. If obviously, if you're looking to build something more solid, that's going to stick around after you're gone, then it probably doesn't hurt for you to have had some chats with integration platforms as a service. , you know, , people do typically think they're quite expensive, but you should take a look. , it I we also have like on our end, we have some, , some customers who are in sort of a consultant type role, and they, they go around, they put it in, in assorted businesses, You know, we have a chat and we sort them out that way. But if you're not in that position, which obviously you're not all the time, I think my experience when I've looked into it is that you've got your I don't know what the the term for the category is. I always think of them as stepwise tools like Power Automate or Zapier or things like that. I don't know if that's a if if I made that up, you know what I mean?



[00:30:30] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, I know you're talking about stepwise integrate. Yeah. Whatever you want to call them.



[00:30:34] Guest: Adam Rakich: I kind of like set up block flow, whatever it is, they are all wildly different. And you kind of need to spend some time with them. So I guess if you have a particular challenge, then it's worth having a look. Because look, if you do it, I do a lot of power platform stuff when I mess around, and I recommend that. It's hard to not recommend that because being Microsoft, the Excel stuff is is is obviously great. Power Query, automate all of that stuff. But I'm certainly not the Oracle. I certainly don't teach people how to use Power Query. So, , I'm not going to offer further advice there, but I think it's worth a look. And also more broadly, if you're using and again, I don't know the term, but are you talking about like the lower end, like people are using zero, they're using QuickBooks. They're using the low end sages like, yeah. And sage has got a lot of different products in that space. , the good thing about those tools is because their base is so big, their marketplaces are insane. And if you haven't had a look because there's a lot of free stuff on it, let's say you've got a client with zero. They don't have any money. If you just go in the zero marketplace and have a look at what you want, just some sort of simple tool might be free, might cost you 20 bucks a month. That's worthwhile if it's going to save you how many hours in your short engagement, right. Whereas you don't get that when you get to the mid-market tools, unfortunately, the price, the price goes up.



[00:32:01] Host: Paul Barnhurst: That's some really good advice. I, like you mentioned power platform. You know, learning power Automate I that's something I haven't learned. I've done a lot of Power Query. I haven't done really any Power Automate I've played with a little bit, but I I've heard a lot of really good things and I know you can do quite a bit there. You know, it's amazing what people are doing with Zapier and make and some of these other tools. What's your thoughts about like learning SQL to get data out? I know for me, I use that a lot early in my career. It was really helpful. And then it kind of went to Power Query for me. But what's your thought of modelers, you know, having some basic SQL skills you think that's still needed today or what's your take?



[00:32:43] Guest: Adam Rakich: It's really hot, right? Because, you know, when I hear that question and I have like a gut reaction to it, but it just makes me feel old because I'm like, of course you need SQL because all these SQL, , actually a lot of people aren't dealing with SQL databases all day long. , obviously I am professionally, but also I just, I was I was around when that was that was the only option. You and me both.



[00:33:07] Host: Paul Barnhurst: You're not alone on this, Adam.



[00:33:09] Guest: Adam Rakich: You know, I was, you know, hacking into hacking is too strong. But mess around with SQL system, SQL databases for point of sale systems, blah, blah, blah. Having said that, I mean, I sort of love to know someone who's a lot younger than me, what their feeling is. Yeah, based on it. But my feeling is I don't think I've ever used a data tool. You know, they've flow's fancy interface. Drag and drop. Doesn't matter. I don't think I've seen one where you never, ever needed to drop into SQL. You might get away with it for a long time, or maybe your whole career, but no matter how good the interface, normally SQL is involved underneath. And normally so often I've seen it more than I can count. There's some weird thing that you could do in SQL that the user interface thing doesn't quite understand, and it's a useful thing to do. Now, I can't write SQL freehand. I can write select star from right. But that's about it. And very, very basic stuff. I wouldn't try and do a join by hand, but I can read most of the. Obviously SQL is a ridiculously long library, but to read basic selects where clauses, groups, filters, basic types of joins I think is I don't think they're not.



[00:34:29] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Going on prem customers. They're trying to go all cloud a lot easier to deal with a consistent across the board.



[00:34:35] Guest: Adam Rakich: But as I say, I'd be very prepared for someone younger than me to go. Shut up, old man. This is this is the future. We don't need any of that.



[00:34:44] Host: Paul Barnhurst: But the fact that you're talking about us being old because of SQL makes me feel old. Thanks a lot, Adam. Way to start my morning. You're welcome. Yeah, I'm with you. I still think learning the basics is beneficial. There's a there's still plenty out there of companies that have SQL databases. It's not. By no means is SQL dead in my mind. Maybe I'm off the boat. Like I said, maybe somebody in their 20s is starting their careers. Like, what are you talking about? There's no need. But I think the basics being able to get around it, maybe writing a little bit of code. It's not like you need to invest a ton of time in it, but I'm, I'm I'm with you. I believe the general person should do it. It was very helpful. I learned, and I did report writing for a couple of years before I moved into PHP, and it was incredibly helpful for me to be able to pull data. My boss loved it because I still had access to the database, and he called me up like, can you pull me this? Sure, I'll just go pull it for you. You know, I didn't have to go do it. They left me with the access and I just go get him the data he wanted. And it made a huge difference for us. So I've, you know, I've been a big fan, but I know what you're talking about. It's becoming less needed, as with different tools and different ways.



[00:35:55] Guest: Adam Rakich: Yeah, I guess I think the trick is because, you know, you did that like I, I remember, you know, I had in my first job, , laying hands on computers a lot. Right? I was writing Crystal reports, if people know that. Right. So the SQL queries in there, and then and then I say I mentioned this job with the hardware chain and they, they had a, a Unix based point of sale system. And they released the windows version, which was put in a couple of trial sites, and it was pretty bad, like it didn't do most a lot of the things it needed to do. So I was messing around. I was writing all these little, little applications to like go into the database and print labels or, you know, signs or pay an invoice and all sorts of weird things. So I guess because I had to do that on the regular that's imprinted SQL on my brain. And so that's why I hesitate a bit like if you're someone who's never going to spend that amount of time with it, I don't know. I don't know how hard it is to get out.



[00:36:51] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I tend to think like I've seen a spreadsheet called equals fairly new one. They do do SQL in the background, access a lot of different data sources. They allow you to draw, drag and drop. No code for most of it. But there's going to be a time you need a little bit of that. Or if you're using Power Query, you're using M, which is very similar to SQL. So I from what I see, I still think it's needed, but I totally get the hesitation and it'll be interesting to watch. You know, maybe at some point we have this conversation again in ten years and we'll have someone young on and they'll be like, what is SQL? What are you talking about? Time will tell.



[00:37:26] Guest: Adam Rakich: But I think it's but particularly freelance, right. Because that's, that's I think the key as well, if you are moving around, the more that you can be self-reliant for this sort of stuff because you will hit a need for it. Yes. You know, at some point. Exactly.



[00:37:37] Host: Paul Barnhurst: We have, you know, a lot of people that are doing that, that fractional type work. And I think at some point there's going to be some company where it's going to be helpful, or a number of companies more than likely. So you wrote a book. Let's let's move into that. You wrote a book called The Business Users Guide to Data Integration. So I'm going to ask a couple questions. First, why did you write it? That's not a typical book you see out there. What  what was the kind of impetus behind writing that book I.



[00:38:02] Guest: Adam Rakich: Thought you were going to say? Could you could I have made a longer title?



[00:38:06] Host: Paul Barnhurst: , no. I decided not to go there.



[00:38:09] Guest: Adam Rakich: Well, no. So I because I like, I spent I mean an age is a bit too strong, but I really did want to have a shorter title because it's not snappy the Business Users Guide to Data Integration. But I found that if I took any words out, it would make it sound like a technical resource. And the point is that it's not it's it's not meant to be. So. All right. So yeah, it's not the coolest, sexiest sounding book. Why did I why did I write it. Well, it was because I was doing this job. You know, I have I have an odd background, like I had FP&A before that, you know, I was doing all this nerdy stuff. So I had fairly good knowledge about databases and that sort of stuff. But then I started doing this job, , at Data Blend, and I'm telling all these people every day questions like you were saying, right, what's an API? Yeah. , why is it a problem that the database is on premise and. Well, if I want to bring things across to my CRM, surely it just does the customers automatically like all these basic concepts. Nothing to do with data blend. Just look, a lot of people just don't know and they're scared of it. And I get it as we say this before, you know, accountants want to wrap their arms around what they're doing and feel in control.



[00:39:21] Guest: Adam Rakich: And so often integration seems this big, scary, technical thing. They don't know where to start and where you don't know where to start. You don't , they keep plugging away at the, the the terrible, time consuming process that is their terrible, time consuming process. So the whole point of it is like, look, I think there was I thought there was a gap to say, this is not a book that will teach you to be a an integration person. It won't teach you SQL, it won't teach you how to build to an API. That's not what it's about. It's just to say it doesn't have to be scary, right? Here are the ways you can connect to systems. The pros and cons. The terms you need to know, the questions you need to ask, and what some of the answers you might get might mean. Right? So. And then some ammunition for your business case. Yeah. And when I, I didn't initially plan to write a book, I, I was like, there must be something I can point people to online. So I went looking and it was either there were a lot of five minute read blog posts, typically from integration platforms, which.



[00:40:31] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Are typically from the vendors. I'm going to guess.



[00:40:33] Guest: Adam Rakich: My marketing fluff. And incredibly, their solution was the most simple way to do everything. , or you can go and buy, like, you know, , Dave Seymour's 50,000 page guide to data mesh like, which is obviously too much. It didn't. I couldn't find a simple resource that I wanted to point, , people at. And the book, it's not very long, because it doesn't have to be. I don't know about you. I've read I've read a lot of business type books, which should have been about a third the length, , or maybe even just a blog post, but they feel they need to pad it out by having stories of saying the same thing 50 times. Like, we're all busy.



[00:41:12] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Sometimes you're like, I could just summarize this book in one sentence and save you the time.



[00:41:16] Guest: Adam Rakich: Yeah, so it's not a long book. It's as long as it needs to be, in my opinion, just to help people feel that they can go and talk about it and have a look.



[00:41:27] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Great. And so what what is the focus? Obviously it's integration, but is it what is the user? Let's say I read the book tomorrow. What are you hoping they come away with? What are you hoping it accomplishes for the average business user when they read the book?



[00:41:43] Guest: Adam Rakich: Well, if I give you a before and after. Right. So what I want is there's somebody sitting there as a, as a business user. So, you know, an accountant who is doing something time consuming typically, you know, with whatever. And they would like to not be, but they don't they don't know what to do. You know, short of ringing up like a big four consultancy and. Well, no, I can't do that. But I don't even know who to call or what to look for. I just. So I'm just going to keep going because and this is, it's really hard I think for any, for accountants, particularly when they're the ones, you know, doing, you know, they got the monthly cycle all the time. It just it's relentless. It's very hard to step away. So I think it's just so much easier to keep doing what you're doing. So what I want to say is no, you can read this book. And then afterwards you, you know, the sort of things that you could be doing. You might have an idea of the sort of way you might want to do it, but you kind of can be ready to to start making some calls and start talking to some people without worrying they're going to run rings around you or sell you something you don't need or or things like that.



[00:42:54] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Got it. Perfect. So what we'll do is we'll definitely put a link to that in the show notes. So people who want to access that the book and appreciate you sharing about that and just, you know, talking a little bit about data and accessing it, because I know it's a real challenge that everybody faces, not just finance, but especially the fractional, , SQL APIs. A lot of times people just their eyes glaze over and it's like, all right, just give me the export button and I'll figure it out. And I think the message, at least I want to leave with people is there are options beyond that. If that's what you're always doing, pick up the book, read it. Listen to this episode. You'll start to find some simple ways to make your life easier, because nobody should be doing 100% exporting a bunch of changes and then, you know, importing to wherever it needs to go. There are solutions. I think that that's the message I want people to realize is that it shouldn't be a fully manual process. Doesn't mean you may not be able to automate all of it doesn't mean it'll all of a sudden be simple. Just press a button. But there are things you could do. Is that a fair kind of.



[00:44:01] Guest: Adam Rakich: Yeah. And it's because you probably won't automate everything. And it might be, particularly if you're fractional, you might not be able to automate a lot of it because of the thing, but you will at least know why you're not automating something like why what the lift would be to do x, y, and z so that when the client says, hey, why are we doing this? You say, well, here are your options, right? You could, you could do you could pay a little bit extra up front. It would reduce my hours on this or I can do the hours. And then you look super knowledgeable 100% agree.



[00:44:26] Host: Paul Barnhurst: You can you can have the conversation even if you're not able to do what they want. All right. So we're going to move into a rapid fire section is what we call this. And I spared you a few of the normal questions because I know your day job isn't modeling, so you don't get the VA and the circular reference and a few of those questions. I figured I'd take a VBA question.



[00:44:47] Guest: Adam Rakich: No. Okay.



[00:44:48] Host: Paul Barnhurst: All right. , maybe I'll throw you the one VBA. Just.



[00:44:50] Guest: Adam Rakich: I really shouldn't have said that. Okay, Karen.



[00:44:52] Host: Paul Barnhurst: How this works is you kind of have to pick a side or a quick answer. Some of these, a quick answer, and then at the end, if you want to elaborate on one of the answers you gave, you're welcome to do that.



[00:45:03] Guest: Adam Rakich: So I just I just answer straight off the bat and just like.



[00:45:06] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, just answer straight off the bat. You can't give me an it depends. You kind of pick a side, you know, I need a quick answer. And then at the end, if there's something you're passionate about where you're like, oh, really? It does depend. I'll let you elaborate on one of them, because I get it that it's hard for some people on this, and I will throw in one for VBA. So in building financial models, you think we should be using VBA? Yes or no?



[00:45:29] Guest: Adam Rakich: Yes.



[00:45:29] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Okay. Do you have a favorite tool you like to use to access different data sources.



[00:45:36] Guest: Adam Rakich: Without cheating and saying, I've got unlimited data plan, right? But when I'm not doing that, I actually use a lot of if this, then that for my own little side projects.



[00:45:43] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Okay, perfect. If you could only use one spreadsheet for the rest of your life, you go in with Excel or Google Sheets.



[00:45:51] Guest: Adam Rakich: Excel, I'm afraid.



[00:45:53] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I figured that's what you'd say. Will Excel ever die?



[00:45:57] Guest: Adam Rakich: I always think anytime anyone asks the question about will something die? The answer is normally no, and I. Forever's a long time. But no, it's too much. Too much built up.



[00:46:07] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Do you think I will build the models for us in the future?



[00:46:12] Guest: Adam Rakich: I think they will. But I think that the people peddling. I are suggesting a much nearer future than I have in my mind. Again, Forever's a long time. But in the future. But not enough. Not close enough for us to change anything.



[00:46:26] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Fair enough. What's your view on? She sell protection and models. Do you think we should be using it or not?



[00:46:33] Guest: Adam Rakich: You should, but you shouldn't rely on it.



[00:46:36] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I think that's well said. I'm going to throw one out of there in here that I didn't have on the list. But I think you'll have an opinion on external workbook links in your spreadsheets. Yes or no?



[00:46:47] Guest: Adam Rakich: No.



[00:46:49] Host: Paul Barnhurst: I figured that's out. What you would say. All right. Do you believe financial models are the number one corporate decision making tool?



[00:47:00] Guest: Adam Rakich: I maybe the wrong audiences to. But no.



[00:47:02] Host: Paul Barnhurst: What is?



[00:47:04] Guest: Adam Rakich: I think it's part of important toolbox. You know, like my example. Right. Mature commoditized, tactical decision. Run a model, see the thing. But if you're making a big strategic change in the business, you cannot make that decision based off of financial model. Right? It is one thing you do, but there's a whole pile of other things that you've got to look at.



[00:47:22] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Sure. Fair enough. My favorite answer I got from somebody was, no, it's politics. I was like, I can't argue with you on that one. I'll give it to you. All right. So working in Excel, do you have a favorite lookup function. This is an often people are like should you use Vlookup index match Xlookup choose. Do you have one you like to use?



[00:47:43] Guest: Adam Rakich: So Vlookup wins for me by default because it's the only one I know how to drive. And actually some of the ones you've mentioned to me, I I've just learned about. So this is, this is how you can tell I'm not doing the day to day like you guys are. Fair enough.



[00:47:56] Host: Paul Barnhurst: And that's why I figured I know you're not in a day to day, both by audience has strong opinions on that. All right. So that finishes up the rapid fire. Anything you want to add. Is there anything you wanted to elaborate a little bit on there? Or your feel good with your answers? , you.



[00:48:09] Guest: Adam Rakich: Know, I just that Excel versus Google Sheets, , question. , it's really I don't know what your experience is. It's been interesting. So when I work in FP&A tools, they mostly support Excel for reporting. Right. So like adaptive has a Office Connect for Excel and that sort of thing. But then we always had problems in California because all the tech companies were going gdocs and all this sort of stuff, but I don't know. But I also, when I answer the question to you, I was like, this is again, is this an, , an old man shaking his fist at the cloud? Question because I've used every I. I dip into Google. I use Google Sheets plenty, but only if it was like really basic recording of numbers not actually modeling because every time I've tried to do anything serious, I've hit a wall pretty quick and it's just like, well, I have Excel already, so why would I bother? Why do I want to use g sheets? I don't know if you've had any good compelling answers why people should be using.



[00:49:12] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah speaking that really interesting and it will come out in a couple of weeks. I spoke with David Benaim out of, , us. Cambodia, I believe, is where he's located. He's in Excel MVP and he uses Excel a lot, but he's also the equivalent with Google. And he's very much a big believer that there are times you should be using Google Sheets over Excel. He says their import range feature is better. They're better with some of their data entry stuff. He goes, if you're dealing with large data sets, you need to be in Excel. If he goes, he stays in Excel because he loves Power Query and the way it's able to help him get into the data. But he's like, there's a lot of things where Google Sheets better. I was just talking to a friend. He just joined a new company, one of those tech companies, and they forced him into Google Sheets. And at first he's like, I don't like this. And he's done a few things now. And he's like, actually, I really like some of the things. There are some things they do better. And and so the gap has closed. They're they're much closer today than they were before, but they're still, I would say, the vast majority. I mean, it's clear 9,090% plus are still Excel, but Google Sheets has closed the gap. They're better in collaboration, they're better in some other areas, and they have almost every feature Excel does. So it's interesting to watch. But yes, it's not just an old man thing. It's still Excel is clearly still the 800 pound gorilla when it comes to a spreadsheet. But Google has made quite a bit of inroads and also excels made quite a bit of inroads on where Google's better. They're copying each other's formulas, so that gap of the difference between them keeps narrowing, because if they see something popular from the other and it's mostly been the last few years, Excel bringing what Google Sheets has, because most of the functions that we're in, Google Sheets that were not in Excel were better functions and Excel needed them.



[00:51:02] Guest: Adam Rakich: Yeah, I mean, it's really easy. I mean, I wouldn't want to try and go into competition with Excel. Unfortunately, there's no danger of me releasing a spreadsheet, but because what a barrier to entry. Like literally what other category and technology has literal decades of accumulated development? It's like actually nothing.



[00:51:20] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, and I know we need to wrap up. Our audience is probably okay. They're just geeking out at the moment. But I got to spend one more minute here and then we'll close. Right. Excel you got you got 40 years of history. You got an ecosystem that is second to almost not anything else in the world. The number of trainers, the number of data out there to learn it, the familiarity. I mean brave souls. There's some great new startups that are trying to build modern, collaborative spreadsheets, and they've done some really good things. But bless their hearts, that's that's just such a hard road. You're you're fighting a huge gorilla. If your goal is to unseat Excel, I think most of them have got smart enough, just like the software vendors did. You don't hear very often anymore. We're going to kill Excel. It's like we're going to give a use case where we want to come in or our spreadsheets better for this, or we're going after this target market. That's much easier to do. But if your goal is to unseat Excel and you think you're going to do it from the beginning, you better have a huge war chest and good luck.



[00:52:22] Guest: Adam Rakich: All you need is a big war chest in Microsoft. It's easy.



[00:52:26] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, I mean, I guess if you're Apple and you want to blow your 50 billion in cash, sure. Go for it. Why not? You know what I mean? But it's a hard road, so I think that's a fun note to end on. Why not? We'll end on Excel. Won't die anytime soon. And if your goal is to unseat Excel, good luck. What that has to do with financial modeling will let you decide. But our last question here, if the audience would like to learn a little bit more about you, you know, maybe get familiar with the work you're doing. What's the best way to get in touch with you?



[00:52:55] Guest: Adam Rakich: Probably easiest to find me on LinkedIn. , there's only there's two Adam Rakich on LinkedIn, one of them does it out of Texas. I'm the other one.



[00:53:04] Host: Paul Barnhurst: So the Adam that's not in.



[00:53:06] Guest: Adam Rakich: Texas and the Adam is more aerodynamic, , at the top.



[00:53:11] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Love it. Well, on that note, we'll go ahead and wrap up, but thank you for joining me. I appreciate you talking a little bit about data sharing your background and also having some fun discussing spreadsheets. So thanks for being on the show, Adam, and hope you have a great day.



[00:53:24] Guest: Adam Rakich: And you too, Paul.



[00:53:25] Guest: Adam Rakich: Thank you.



[00:53:27] Host: Paul Barnhurst: Thanks. Financial Modelers Corner was brought to you by the Financial Modeling Institute. This year. I completed the Advanced Financial Modeler certification and it made me a better financial modeler. What are you waiting for? Visit FMI at www.fminstitute.com/podcast and use Code podcast to save 15% when you enroll in one of the accreditations today.